dadcowell Loc: Myrtle Beach SC

I posted this on the Main Photography section, but it was suggested that I post it here on the Wedding site. So here goes:

First of all, let me say that I read a lot about these filters on this site including a post today and understand that most of you feel that "you get what you pay for". I get that, and will eventually buy a decent filter. I'm just a recreational amateur photographer and only use my camera a couple of times a month.

In the meantime, I'm wondering if I need aq circular polarizing filter now. I'll be taking lots of photos at a friends wedding next month and want them to be as good as possible. I'll use my Canon t3-i, mostly my Canon 24-105 L lens, my Speedlite 430 EX II flash and a sturdy tripod.

The venue for the wedding ceremony and reception is an area of a park. There are no trees, water, or cars nearby. There is mainly sky, concrete, grass and a wooden arbor. (the wedding will be out in the open on a large concrete patio). Of course the bride will have a white dress and I'm expecting a clear bright sunny day. +

Would a circular polarizing filter make a big difference in the quality of the pictures?

What do you think?

superpijak Loc: Middle TN

I'm sure others will contribute, but IMO if you anticipate any glare or potential reflections you want to have one handy to keep them under control. Not sure if it would make an impact otherwise.

dadcowell Loc: Myrtle Beach SC

Superpijak,

Thanks for your input. Maybe I'll wait.

Bill

superpijak Loc: Middle TN

Don't get me wrong, I always keep one in my camera bag because you never know what you may run into. IMO, better to have one than regret not spending the few dollars and be in regret.

bkyser Loc: Fly over country in Indiana

Howdie Dad (can I call you Dad?)

The circular polarizer isn't for cutting light (which it will a bit) it is for controlling glare. No glass, no water, no cars, probably no glare.

A ND filter may help darken the sky (graduated ND filter would be better, but more tricky as far as composition) Frankly, we all hate outdoor, midday weddings with white dresses, but we usually get stuck doing them. (I am speaking for everyone here, but I could be over reaching)

So, if there really isn't any shade, I have a few tips.

If you don't already have one, get a good, powerful flash with High speed sync (or whatever your camera manufacturer calls it) Forget the filters, HSS will help you manage the exposure better. I also shoot raw to help if I have anything close to blown out, I can recover a lot in RAW. I try not to blow it, but I'm being honest, things DO get blown out when you are in tough lighting conditions. The recovery, or highlight slider in camera raw or Lightroom is a lifesaver.

How I would handle it, so you don't have white skies and dark subjects would be to set the camera, whatever mode I use manual, but it isn't necessary if you aren't comfortable in manual mode, just pick whatever mode (won't work in Auto, at least I don't think) But set your exposure compensation for the scene to -1 stop. No flash right now... take a test shot. Can you see blue sky? If so, move on to step 2. If your sky is still very bright, decrease exposure compensation to -1.5 (and so on, until you get a nicely lit, but not too dark, image of the area. This is what I do before the outdoor ceremony begins.

Step 2. Put your camera and flash in HSS (Auto FP in Nikon) mode. If I remember correctly from your other post, you aren't the main shooter, but shooting "supplemental, behind the scenes shots", so I wouldn't get too worked up about using off camera flash. Leave that up to the main shooter who has assistants to move the lights, etc.

Now, start with your flash in TTL, or Fill flash, with 0 compensation to start. Set your camera meter mode to spot meter, not area, or matrix (whatever your camera calls it) The color of the dress, and bright sky will confuse the meter, and your flash will be way too bright, and will blow out your subject. Spot meter will meter off the same thing you are focusing on (face and eye area) That is what the TTL will light properly. Now, if your subjects look a little bright, or a little dim, you can adjust your flash exposure compensation. One bit of warning, you will probably blow through a lot of batteries shooting outdoor weddings with flash. It takes a LOT of power to overpower the sun. Your on camera flash just won't cut it. I won't get into technical stuff, but HSS causes you to lose a lot of power as well. Instead of one bright flash, it does a bunch of faster, lower powered flashes to overcome the issue of sync speed, and the dreaded "black bar of death"

What this will do is make the skies nice and blue, and the subjects will be lit properly, not be just shadows in front of white which I see a lot with shoot and burners. (I get hired to "fix" those wedding photos, sometimes I can, sometimes it is a lost cause. The couple can sometimes spend more having the photos fixed to being usable, than they would have spent hiring someone who knows what they are doing in the first place.

You "could" do ND filters, but I find that my flash exposures don't come out quite as accurate, and I end up losing some photos. I'm also not a fan of adding extra glass in front of my lens. I'm in the "ND filters are a crock of hooey to upsell people buying lenses" crowd. Been shooting over 30 years, and have dropped lenses, camera bodies, etc. Never had a front element break before something else did.

Hope this helps. Just remember, advice you get from me, is worth exactly what you pay for it. This is just how I work in the bright sun. I'm sure there are other ways, some probably better.

Keep us posted on how this turns out, and share a few pics if you get some winners. We offer critique when asked for, but don't beat people up like in some of the other sections.

dadcowell Loc: Myrtle Beach SC

bkyser,

Thanks so much for your detailed response. I actually printed it out and intend to bring it with me to the wedding venue next week at the same time of day as the wedding, so I can try out your suggestions. Your tips seem great. I'm glad that you are not suggesting that I buy and use filters. That's one less thing I have to think about.As far as the flash goes, I don't know if it is capable of HSS. I use a Speedlite 430 EXii. I'll have to check on the specs and upgrade if I have to.

In answer to your assumption that I am the second shooter, there is no first shooter. The people getting married have very little cash and will not be hiring a florest, band, wedding planner, videographer or caterer much less a photographer. They are using friends to do everything. The reception will be in our church and some of the guests will bring covered dishes(like a pot luck) for dinner. I'm originally from New Jersey where folks spend tens of thousands for weddings. Here in South Carolina, things are simpler and a fancy wedding is not the norm.

The family is very much aware of my lack of experience and don't seem to be concerned that their keepsake photos won't be as good as if they hired a pro. Having said all of that, I will have another person helping me and taking pictures with another good camera just in case Murphy's law comes into play. I also have three camera batteries, three 8gb cards and about 20 AA batteries for my flash.

This whole idea makes me a little anxious, but I'm also quite excited to be doing this for them. Even though I have played down my ability, I'd like to do a great job for them.

I have received and am grateful for a lot of advice from the main site (much of it advising me not to do it), but I'll take any additional technical or organizational tips you think of.

Thanks again for gifting me your encouragement and your advice.

Bill

bkyser Loc: Fly over country in Indiana

OK, gotcha. There was someone else who posted in the main photography section that was talking about being a second shooter, and as usual, everyone jumped on him telling him not to do it...run...etc.

I completely understand where you are coming from now, and have some more tips for you based on the new info.

First.....relax, it will be OK. They know they aren't paying you big $$ for this, so have fun. You may get hooked like some of us other weirdoes here, and decide that it IS something you want to do.

Communication is key here.
Set up a time with your friends, and make a list TOGETHER. If you ask them for a list, you won't get it, they are busy getting everything else ready.

What you want is.
A list of important people that HAVE to be in the formal shots. Others may be in it, but these are the special people, relatives, etc, that they can't live without.

A person's name (I call this person, my wrangler) the person that knows everyone, or most everyone on both sides. If that isn't possible, then ask for 2 names, one for each side. They will be acting as your assistants, keeping everyone ready to go get their photos taken.

Next, you need a shot list. Easiest way is to ask the bride to share her Pinterest page with you. ALL brides these days are using Pinterest to come up with ideas. If you look at that page, you will find out what types of photos that she likes. I've not med a bride in a few years, that didn't have SEVERAL photo examples on Pinterist. Easy way to make sure you stick with what they have in mind.

On that shot list, you can download several online that include getting ready, blah blah blah. I don't use those, I have the bride and groom do this when we meet. That way, if something is missed, and it isn't on the list, you won't get blamed.

I do realize that they know you aren't a wedding photographer, but brides and grooms forget that when they get photos back that aren't what they were expecting, even from non-photographer friends. it happens. Don't get all concerned by comments in the "other" sections about losing friends. They may get disappointed, but they can't very well sue you for non performance, when you told them that you weren't a pro.

Here's a HUGE one. During the reception, do NOT stand at the outside edges of the room and try to "catch" interesting shots. What you will end up with, is a bunch of shots of the backs of people's heads, people putting food in their mouths, and people picking their noses. (hopefully not, but I've seen it all)

Instead, take a page out of the kid's selfy craze. Walk up to EVERY single table, and get as many people at a time to move around to the back of the others, and pose for a happy shot, then ask them for a "goofy" shot. The goofy ones, even though everyone won't do it, are "money" when it comes to albums. When people are goofing around, and showing they are having a good time, even if crap is falling down around them, the memories when the photos are looked at, will be "look how much fun our wedding was"

Another thing to consider is that handing them a disk of 2000 images is not what a friend would do. Not sure if you are getting paid anything, but think of it this way. Can YOU imagine trying to pick out which few you want to print out of that many? Most disks get thrown into a desk drawer and get lost after they look through them once.

If you give them the disk, give them a second one with the ones that YOU choose as the best of the best. Give them like 100-200 REALLY good shots, and even consider printing the best of the best in 4x6 as a wedding gift that they can put in an album.

Those 4x6 prints, will mean more to them than the other 2000 rotting away in the drawer.

I'm redoing all of my packages right now, and will start including digital images (only way I can compete here), but all of my packages will include albums or some prints, mostly as a service to the couple. When I talk to them, I explain about how hard it is to narrow down which are the best ones, even then, they RARELY get printed, I consider giving them 4x6 prints, or especially albums an extra service to them to make their life easier.

Others can, and will, disagree with me, but I've had to put my foot down, and decided that if someone says they don't want any prints or albums, I tell them that they probably want a different photographer. Photographs aren't photographs until they are printed, and able to be displayed on a wall or in a book. Until then, they are 1s and 0s, on a disk or on a computer that will eventually fail.

Whew, off my soapbox now.
Keep us posted on how things go.

I do have a few more suggestions, but don't want to overwhelm you with everything in super long posts.

Can you tell I'm passionate about this stuff? 8-)

jaysnave Loc: Central Ohio

Hey Dad,

Best of luck and stay exited about the opportunity and you will do fine. Bob outdid himself with great advise and I don't really have much more to add, but feel free to drop a question or two if they pop up before the wedding.

I will re-emphasise what Bob covered in the non technical piece of his advice. Knowing what the couple wants and developing a good plan is your first priority. That perfectly executed shot will never happen if you are not in the right place at the right time.

Well, Ok regarding the technical piece and the planning piece. Give yourself a trial run prior to the wedding day. Whichever technique and equipment you use, take some sample shots at the location during the same time of day. Then do it again at the rehearsal. Practice makes perfect. It also gives you confidence and less stress on wedding day.

One more add on to Bob's reception advise. Team up with the bride and groom as they visit each table. There are usually hugs and great expressions associated with that.

dadcowell Loc: Myrtle Beach SC

Bob,

Yes, I can most definitely tell that you are "passionate about this stuff". Your passion is my gain. I like your new tips, especially the one about the table shots. I never heard of pinterest, but I'll ask her about it. I already suggested several shots to her and asked her to add to it. about two weeks ago. You are right, though that so far I have no response. I'll have to sit them both down.

Here is a question: I plan to take all the family and bridal party pictures in the park where the ceremony will take place, right after the ceremony. You mentioned having Wranglers from each side. Do I somehow use them to make sure that all the right relatives stick around for those pictures or is there another way you use to make sure they don't drive off to the reception? Do you announce it from the pulpit?

Here is another one: The Pastor (who is my good friend) doesn't want any camera noise or flash during the ceremony. So how do you capture things like the exchange of rings, etc? Do you recreate it afterwards?

By the way, I'm going to the ceremony site tomorrow to take some test shots. It will be a short visit because the bride can't meet me there till next week. Then I will meet her at the same time of day and she will fill me in on where exactly the ceremony will be and how it will be set up.

dadcowell Loc: Myrtle Beach SC

Jay,

Thanks for your response and your sound advice. I'm going to the ceremony site tomorrow to take some test shots and again next week with the bride at the same time as the wedding.

I also like your idea of following the couples from table to table.

Bill

Beercat Loc: Central Coast of California

Your over thinking this whole thing. Today most young photographers like blowing out the background. Not saying I like it but it does serve it's purpose in this situation. I wouldn't worry about filters or flash. Get the exposure/white balance on the faces/dress spot on and let the rest be what it is.

The only thing I might consider would be an ND filter which will help manage the f/stop to allow more blur on any backdrop that comes through. Remember when you blow out the background the focus is placed on the subject ;)

I own 4 600EX-RT flash units and I wouldn't pull them out for an outdoor wedding, whey to hard to get it perfect as you would need to set the exposure to the background and then illuminate the subject with flash and to make it a factor you would need to be very close especially when using HSS which takes away a stop of light and sucks batteries big time. You would need to set the flash zoom to help direct the light to the subject, but again you would need to be very close, probably within 15 - 20 feet to make any real difference and it could be a distraction.

Keep it simple as I recommended in the beginning ;-)

A crop sensor as your using may have issues when night falls. Even with flash it could be tough, this is when a full frame camera shines, when the light goes bye bye. I routinely shoot 4 Canon 600EX-RT flash units at 2500 - 3200 ISO. You do that with a crop and it's going to be grainy and the detail will be gone. You can eliminate the grain but the detail is gone as it never managed to be there in the first place. Your Canon shouldn't be above 640 ISO if you have other options ;)

bkyser Loc: Fly over country in Indiana

Great questions.
1. the wrangler(s) I talk to them before everything gets started, and tell them that the bride and groom specifically "volunteered them to be responsible for wrangling the special guests" Give them lists of people to keep handy. Formals after the ceremony are tough, because people really don't want to hang around, and people at the reception get anxious, wondering what is taking so long. I'm hoping that they told guests the reception will be an hour or 2 after the ceremony, or you will be REALLY rushed.

Here's a trick that has been working for me lately. Let them know, if they want the bridal magazine type "artsy" photos, those are NOT done after the ceremony, when there isn't any time. Those are done before. Then, tell them WHY it's bad luck to see the bride before the wedding, and why it makes more sense to actually do most of the shots before hand.

First reason. The "bad luck" thing is carried over from when arranged marriages were the norm. They didn't want the groom to see the bride until the wedding, in case she was too ugly, and he would run away and leave her at the altar (there are other stories out there, but this is the one I use) It is also the reason for the veil...

Second reason. If it is a mid-day wedding, your light will be harsh and you will be fighting raccoon eyes. (brides don't want that), you "can" use the fill flash to mitigate that, but they don't have to know that when you are trying to get them to do the "first looks" session. Schedule that for the morning, and you won't be fighting noon sun. The bride will like to know that she'll look better not squinting. Shoot with the sun to their backs, and use the fill light. They will have pleasing looks on their faces, and have a nice halo of light behind them.

Third reason, as stated above. There just isn't enough time between ceremony and reception to get artsy photos, as well as the family shots, bridal party, etc.

Last reason. You can use the "first looks" shots as part of your "artsy" photos. Google "first looks photos" You will find tons of creative ideas. We did one last year where we had the bride in one elevator, and groom in the other, then we orchestrated them leaning out and seeing each other for the first time, then got their looks at each other, and finally them meeting in the middle and kissing. I've also done one standing on each side of a tree, and "peaking around" to see the other one, then they come around, and you get a very nice kiss in front of the tree.


OK, for the second question about the shooting "during"
If I can convince the couple to do first looks, and get bridal party shots before hand, so all I need to do is the family, I try to recreate EVERYTHING. Sometimes I have no choice, because there are officials out there that forbid ANY shots during. You can get all you want with them coming down the aisle, and the kiss, and walking back up the aisle, but some pastors just put their foot down about shots during, because of noise, and flashes. (from the crowd as well) If this is what your official wants, then "USE THAT" to your advantage and do the first looks and party shots before the ceremony so you have time to recreate the others)

I always re-create as much as I can anyway, because you can't get close enough, and in good position without becoming part of the ceremony (I try not to be seen or intrusive during a ceremony) to get the shots you want.

To this day, when I look at the "during the ceremony" shots, they all look the same. (and nobody ever buys one...ever) Don't worry about not being able to shoot 200 shots of them all standing up there, all you can see is the back of everyone, (boring) If in a church, a nice shot from the balcony can be nice, but not, as a general rule, a bunch during the ceremony. If you can grab a few shots of the Mother of the bride and/or groom crying, or grandma looking at the couple, that is worth taking. The rest, is just a way to fill a memory card, and makes for extra culling later.

Just ask the friend if they mind if you take 5-6, non flash photos of guests during the ceremony, and one from the back of the room to catch all of the bridal party. That will probably be OK, just make sure all beeps and flashes are off. Your exposure will be different than how you set it up for the flash shots, so keep that in mind.

dadcowell Loc: Myrtle Beach SC

Thanks again for your incite.
I don't plan to do anything fancy or artsy. As the other gentlemen suggested, I plan to keep it as simple as possible with shots of the B&G with family members and the wedding party after the ceremony. As you suggested, I'll probably recreate a couple of ceremony pictures. I have to double check, but I think the reception is 1 1/2 hours after the wedding starts. So I should have time.

Another Question: Is it acceptable to stand in the front and take pictures as the parents and bridle party and bride come down the Aisle as the wedding starts?

Question 2: When I take the pictures of the B&G with family and bridle party, where should I place them relative to the sun?

Question 3: Presuming it is a bright day, do I need a reflector?

You have been so patient with what must seem like some very elementary questions. Hope I'm wearing out my welcome.

Bill[quote=bkyser]Great questions.
1. the wrangler(s) I talk to them before everything gets started, and tell them that the bride and groom specifically "volunteered them to be responsible for wrangling the special guests" Give them lists of people to keep handy. Formals after the ceremony are tough, because people really don't want to hang around, and people at the reception get anxious, wondering what is taking so long. I'm hoping that they told guests the reception will be an hour or 2 after the ceremony, or you will be REALLY rushed.


I always re-create as much as I can anyway, because you can't get close enough, and in good position without becoming part of the ceremony (I try not to be seen or intrusive during a ceremony) to get the shots you want.

To this day, when I look at the "during the ceremony" shots, they all look the same. (and nobody ever buys one...ever) Don't worry about not being able to shoot 200 shots of them all standing up there, all you can see is the back of everyone, (boring).

Just ask the friend if they mind if you take 5-6, non flash photos of guests during the ceremony, and one from the back of the room to catch all of the bridal party. That will probably be OK, just make sure all beeps and flashes are off. Your exposure will be different than how you set it up for the flash shots, so keep that in mind.

jaysnave Loc: Central Ohio

Another Question: Is it acceptable to stand in the front and take pictures as the parents and bridle party and bride come down the Aisle as the wedding starts?

Yes, I do anyway. But I try to stay stealth by going down on one knee and staying low. It is hard as large as I am, but if you look like you belong then you will sort of blend in.

Question 2: When I take the pictures of the B&G with family and bridle party, where should I place them relative to the sun?

First look for shade. Shade makes everything better and less complicated. I know you said open park, but if no shade from a structure or trees then pray for clouds. If you must shoot in the sun you will want to put their back to it rather than directly in their faces. Sun in the face = squinty eyes, raccoon eyes, and blown out highlights. When their back is to the sun you will need to add fill from a flash to avoid flat dull lighting on their faces.

Question 3: Presuming it is a bright day, do I need a reflector?

You would need an assistant and one reflector would not help you in group photos. look for shade ...

You have been so patient with what must seem like some very elementary questions. Hope I'm wearing out my welcome.

Nope, but you will find that there is not one perfect plan. Yikes what if you have fast moving clouds and the lighting changes in the middle of the wedding? Be ready to change those settings on the fly.

bkyser Loc: Fly over country in Indiana

[quote=dadcowell]
Another Question: Is it acceptable to stand in the front and take pictures as the parents and bridle party and bride come down the Aisle as the wedding starts?

Question 2: When I take the pictures of the B&G with family and bridle party, where should I place them relative to the sun?

Question 3: Presuming it is a bright day, do I need a reflector?

You have been so patient with what must seem like some very elementary questions. Hope I'm wearing out my welcome.

Bill

1. ALWAYS ask the official before hand, but I've never had anyone tell me that I can't take whatever photos from wherever when they are coming down the aisle. For an outdoor wedding especially, it is good to be there for the rehearsal to know where everyone will be coming from. As Jay said above, your job is to blend in, but keep in mind, people will be standing up in the aisle to grab shots of people as they come down the aisle too, so you need to plan well and make sure that if they do stand up, you can move a bit and still get the shot you want. People are very inconsiderate when it comes to taking their own pictures during the wedding.

2. If it isn't possible to scout out some shade, then you want the sun behind them. It's the opposite of what "uncle Bob" (I hate that term, since my name is Bob) thinks is correct to fill in shadows. Either meter as I said before, underexpose a bit for the background, and light them with the flash. (can't do really large groups that way unless you have multiple flashes), or meter off the face of the bride (spot meter) Everything else will fall into place, but the Bride is the star of the day, and you want her to be the center of focus, and the one perfectly lit. The rest is all background noise (even the groom)

3. Reflector (with an assistant, or a willing guest, which I've done, to hold it and aim it where you tell them) is a good idea. If you have the sun behind the group, a reflector will help add light to the subject, so your flash (flashes) don't have to work so hard.

Beercat is very VERY talented, and we agree on most things, and disagree on some. I won't do outdoor stuff without flashes. I would suggest you do a lot of practicing, even on stuffed animals in bright sun, to find out the way that works best for you, and that is comfortable.

You have to keep in mind, I've been doing this for a VERY long time, and things that seem second nature to me, may take a while for someone who is nervous, and hasn't done it before, so if you aren't comfortable shooting the way I do, you either need to get comfortable before the wedding, or maybe try a different way. If you aren't comfortable changing settings on the fly (for when a cloud passes) most can be fixed in PP if you shoot raw, but sometimes you HAVE to change settings, then maybe Aperture or something mode would work better.

The only thing about shooting with fill flash outside, is that you won't get raccoon eyes, and not nearly as many shadows across faces because of shade from the arbor or something that you didn't see when you set up the shot.

Lastly, I still would try to get as many shots done before hand as possible. 1-1/2 hour isn't as long as you think. Some weddings run over, some start late, people wander off and your wranglers have to find them, Bride and Groom will stand around and talk to relatives that don't leave right away, you have to check your list to make sure you don't miss any special people, posing the group, and fixing the brides dress between every shot, and the groom's tux, as well as trying to catch the details of other people (button gaping open on a groomsman's shirt, open flies, bridesmaids with smudged makeup. Trust me, and hour and a half will feel like 5 minutes to you, and feel like 4 hours to the people who want to get to the reception. If you can do first looks, and get all the wedding party shots done in advance, you can get creative, and get them magazine type shots from other sections of the park (would take WAY too long to move everyone around between ceremony and reception), and then all you need to grab would be parents, grandparents, and long lost cousins that they REALLY want in their shots.

It is completely up to you, but the more you can do early, not only helps you get better, more thought out and creative prints, but takes the rush, pressure off of the wedding party afterwards.