Ugly Hedgehog - Photography Forum
Home Active Topics Newest Pictures Search Login Register
Main Photography Discussion
Megapixels equivalent of film question
Page <<first <prev 3 of 4 next>
Feb 1, 2016 14:30:38   #
TheDman Loc: USA
 
jburlinson wrote:
With respect, that may be a nice sound bite and a cry from the heart, but it isn't really true. Consider this website: just sample the posts from the most active threads on UHH and tag them either "cares about the technology" or "doesn't care about the technology". The "cares" will outnumber the "don't cares" about 10 to 1.


This website doesn't represent the masses at all. This is one of the only places you can find where people do care. And I would venture to guess that even here, the degree to which you care is inversely proportional to your knowledge and experience.

Reply
Feb 1, 2016 14:51:27   #
Trane Loc: Connecticut
 
Agree on the boring part. As an aside (maybe0 i was told in the early days of digital cameras (first one was the Sony Mavica 1.3 MP) that when camera offered 12 MPs that would be the closest to actual film, and the ability to enlarge a film quality print at 8 x 10 inches.

That turned out the a decent estimate as became evident with the purchase of my Canon SX130IS (12.1 MP) and my Rebel T1i (15 MP)

Yet - without any solid facts - i think the MP ratings can be confusing, and sometimes impractical. While the Rebel was terrible in color rendition, the much cheaper Powershot SX130IS did a wonderful job. I've replaced the Rebel with a Canon 70D and the difference is stunning (and for both cameras - i was at about 8 MP's)

Reply
Feb 1, 2016 15:35:09   #
pyroManiac Loc: HIXSON,TN
 
Is not each grain in the emulsion equal to 1 pixel? The number of grains would be different for each film. Anything better than Kodachrome 25?

Reply
 
 
Feb 1, 2016 15:39:21   #
Darkroom317 Loc: Mishawaka, IN
 
pyroManiac wrote:
Is not each grain in the emulsion equal to 1 pixel? The number of grains would be different for each film. Anything better than Kodachrome 25?


No grain size and shape varies drastically. It depends mainly on how quickly the silver nitrate is added to the potassium bromide and gelatin solution. The slower, the bigger the crystals and the faster the emulsion. Sensitizing dyes and other things can change the characteristic as well. Color film after it is processed has no silver and therefore no actual grain but is an image composed of dye. There is also a difference in grain shape between cubic and t grain films. This effects graininess and therefore resolution. Developers also change grain characteristic. Solvent developers render finer grain than non-solvent developers such as Rodinal.

The highest resolution film that I know of is Adox CMS 20. 800 lp/mm according to the literature

http://www.adox.de/Photo/adox-films-2/cms-20-ii-adotech-ii/

http://www.freestylephoto.biz/pdf/product_pdfs/adox/CMS20_ADOTECHII_instructions.pdf

Reply
Feb 1, 2016 15:40:30   #
burkphoto Loc: High Point, NC
 
jburlinson wrote:
With respect, that may be a nice sound bite and a cry from the heart, but it isn't really true. Consider this website: just sample the posts from the most active threads on UHH and tag them either "cares about the technology" or "doesn't care about the technology". The "cares" will outnumber the "don't cares" about 10 to 1.


Hey, I DO care about my technology. I've been using photography, multi-image AV, audio, video, and computing technology — and buying it, managing it, and writing about it — for over four decades.

But caring about it wasn't my point. I'll re-clarify.

The point is that there is a limit to what is a healthy amount of analysis vs. a healthy amount of use — of technology. And then there is that *audience reaction* to what we do, or *what audience members DO as a result of viewing or experiencing our work.* Did we bother to move the needle?

At some point, the pixel peeping and spec gazing yields diminishing marginal returns and becomes wishful thinking or drooling or jealousy or worse.

I'm all about the audience reaction. I produce training content. My trainees never care what I use to create the content... Mac or PC, Shure or Electro-Voice or Sennheiser or AKG, Nikon or Canon or Panasonic... They could care less what I use. It is the same for the most successful photographers I know, of all stripes.

Yes, gear is important, but knowledge, skill, experience, purpose, and point of view do matter more than gear. Otherwise, why have the gear?

Reply
Feb 1, 2016 15:47:15   #
burkphoto Loc: High Point, NC
 
pyroManiac wrote:
Is not each grain in the emulsion equal to 1 pixel? The number of grains would be different for each film. Anything better than Kodachrome 25?


Not really. Grain sizes in film vary, randomly within a range, and within the same emulsion. Sensor sites are uniformly sized and spaced across a sensor surface, and the pixels DERIVED from them are uniformly sized and spaced as well. As a result, there are different characteristic appearances of each type of image.

Reply
Feb 1, 2016 15:54:01   #
twowindsbear
 
burkphoto wrote:


I don't think you can separate all the variables. You CAN test one thing at a time, with all other variables kept equal.



OK - how does one test or measure the resolution of a DSLR's sensor?

Can 1 pixel show more than 1 line?

Seems the maximum resolution would be 1/2 the number of pixels in 1 dimension of the sensor. Well, factoring in the size of the sensor. 1/2 the pixels per mm.

I'm just really curious. I'm happy with the camera I have, and the resolution it provides.

Again, TIA.

Reply
 
 
Feb 1, 2016 16:04:18   #
burkphoto Loc: High Point, NC
 
twowindsbear wrote:
OK - how does one test or measure the resolution of a DSLR's sensor?

Can 1 pixel show more than 1 line?

Seems the maximum resolution would be 1/2 the number of pixels in 1 dimension of the sensor. Well, factoring in the size of the sensor. 1/2 the pixels per mm.

I'm just really curious. I'm happy with the camera I have, and the resolution it provides.

Again, TIA.


Beats me. I'm not that much of a techie. I test whole systems, not bits and pieces.

As a former Systems Manager, I know that optimizing any one element in my system or workflow to a degree that it outperforms the rest of the system probably isn't going to affect output very much. The output is only as good as the weakest link or bottleneck in the chain, "from shutter click to print clunk." (Clunk being the sound of a print falling out of a processor or printer...)

I also know that if I switch out one element at a time, I can tell whether that affects the output in any way. And I like side by side qualitative comparisons, rather than numeric ones. Numbers are only important when you put them in the context of reality. (So show me prints and let me put them in order...)

Reply
Feb 1, 2016 16:55:18   #
Blasthoff Loc: Life halved NY and IN
 
burkphoto wrote:
I remember the kit. It convinced me I needed to spend more on a decent enlarger lens!

I don't think you can separate all the variables. You CAN test one thing at a time, with all other variables kept equal.

At some point, you have to just accept what you have, learn its characteristics and limitations, live within them, and not fret over how good something else is (or might be). There are plenty of folks who obsess over every last bit of performance on a test target, rather than getting out and making images.

In the real world, some of the most compelling photos are made with lenses that aren't particularly sharp, with cameras that aren't the "best on the market" (whatever that means). They tell stories, move minds, sell products, change hearts, or cause us to linger and take a longer look.

And we don't friggin' CARE whether they were made on film or with a digital camera, or whether they were made with a Nikon or a Canon (or any other brand) camera. We're too caught up in what we SEE to care about the technology.

The medium IS NOT the message. Marshall McLuhan was full of it. If you use any medium appropriately, you will make your point. Great gear just makes it easier and more fun.
I remember the kit. It convinced me I needed to sp... (show quote)


In a word, YEP!

I've been to museums and special photography shows in New York, Chicago, Indianapolis and several University's and I've yet to see a photograph of a test chart.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

NOTE: As a comment to another thread, BurkPhoto's post here is a prime example of why it would be great to have a "thumbs up" counter. :thumbup:

Reply
Feb 1, 2016 23:17:24   #
BHC Loc: Strawberry Valley, JF, USA
 
John_F wrote:
Yes, I have seen those definitions in many places. My problem is that a line, whether black or white, must have a width. Then does a line pair mean: one dark + one white or "left side of dark + entire white to left side of next dark." Now think of film silver bromide grain size - light dissociates sone molecules and the film developes grain-wise. A grain will have many, several, few, no dissociated AgBr molecules, so a grain will be either nearly clear to very dark. So to my mind the resolution limit is grain size. Now in digital what is the grain size equivalency in pixels.
Yes, I have seen those definitions in many places.... (show quote)

Which means, of course, that viewing an image of even the most carefully rendered test pattern under high magnification is bound to give you lines with jagged edges. It reinforces the claims that there are some comparisons that, by their very nature, are, at best, subjective. Just as you cannot definitively compare ppi to dpi without other factors, you can only estimate any comparisons between film and digital without introducing other variables. In the end, it follows the rule of apples and oranges.

This does raise an interesting question, however. Has anyone ever counted the number of grains in a film negative or slide? I'm sure there's some way to do in using an electron microscope and a computer.

Reply
Feb 1, 2016 23:19:36   #
Darkroom317 Loc: Mishawaka, IN
 
Mogul wrote:
Which means, of course, that viewing an image of even the most carefully rendered test pattern under high magnification is bound to give you lines with jagged edges. It reinforces the claims that there are some comparisons that, by their very nature, are, at best, subjective. Just as you cannot definitively compare ppi to dpi without other factors, you can only estimate any comparisons between film and digital without introducing other variables. In the end, it follows the rule of apples and oranges.

This does raise an interesting question, however. Has anyone ever counted the number of grains in a film negative or slide? I'm sure there's some way to do in using an electron microscope and a computer.
Which means, of course, that viewing an image of e... (show quote)


It would never be the same. Depends on the grain size and film format in addition to being a random pattern. My guess is that Kodak, Ilford, Fuji etc.. would have a rough average estimate

Reply
 
 
Feb 1, 2016 23:29:28   #
BHC Loc: Strawberry Valley, JF, USA
 
Darkroom317 wrote:
It would never be the same. Depends on the grain size and film format in addition to being a random pattern. My guess is that Kodak, Ilford, Fuji etc.. would have a rough average estimate

Agreed. I know it's a little off topic, but I am constantly asked about the horsepower of one of the big steam locomotives at the California State Railroad Museum. The answer is that there are too many variables in steam locomotion to calculate horsepower. We can give you a fairly accurate calculation of "Tractive Force", but conversion to horsepower is nothing but a guess made on experience in the operation of steam locomotives with various loads.

Reply
Feb 2, 2016 00:12:59   #
35B Loc: Australia
 
Hi Bob,
thanks for your reply. It looks like sensors have quite a way to go before they catch up with film. I suppose it would help if I knew the size of the film sensitive grains and I could compare them with the size of the pixels on the full frame sensor. I find it a very interesting subject.

Thanks again,
35B

Reply
Feb 2, 2016 00:16:58   #
Darkroom317 Loc: Mishawaka, IN
 
35B wrote:
Hi Bob,
thanks for your reply. It looks like sensors have quite a way to go before they catch up with film. I suppose it would help if I knew the size of the film sensitive grains and I could compare them with the size of the pixels on the full frame sensor. I find it a very interesting subject.

Thanks again,
35B


Here is a thread on APUG. Should be a good source. There are several film company representatives, photo engineers and emulsion makers on the site.

http://www.apug.org/forums/forum45/102039-size-film-grain.html

Here is a good link from that discussion

http://cool.conservation-us.org/coolaic/sg/emg/library/pdf/vitale/2009-10-vitale-filmgrain_resolution_v24.pdf

Reply
Feb 2, 2016 02:09:52   #
twowindsbear
 
Mogul wrote:
Agreed. I know it's a little off topic, but I am constantly asked about the horsepower of one of the big steam locomotives at the California State Railroad Museum. The answer is that there are too many variables in steam locomotion to calculate horsepower. We can give you a fairly accurate calculation of "Tractive Force", but conversion to horsepower is nothing but a guess made on experience in the operation of steam locomotives with various loads.


There's no 'dynomometer' for steam loco's?

Reply
Page <<first <prev 3 of 4 next>
If you want to reply, then register here. Registration is free and your account is created instantly, so you can post right away.
Main Photography Discussion
UglyHedgehog.com - Forum
Copyright 2011-2024 Ugly Hedgehog, Inc.