abc1234 Loc: Elk Grove Village, Illinois

I think this is a very healthy discussion and I hope it informs the other readers.

The reasons why I have read a lot about meters are that I wanted to make sure I was not missing anything about them and to improve my current practices. Just because I had all that experience with them does not mean I know all there is to know about them. One of the frustrating thing about what I have read is that exceptions govern how to use them as much as do the rules. No one seems to have a monopoly on their proper, consistent use. Given that, I prefer to simplify things by using the built-in meter. I do switch metering modes depending upon circumstances.

Regarding "it's in a chapel with even lighting", that is a big assumption. What if there are a lot of windows or skylights creating bright spots or shadows. Or what if the ceremony happens as the sun sets? And what if there are big clouds moving over head that change the amount of light pouring in? Or what if there is a mix of lights of different brightness. And what if the "what if's" go on and on and on.... Not only might your exposure change but also your white balance. Be careful of your assumptions!

rpavich, thank you for your apology and what do you mean by "OP"?

rpavich Loc: West Virginia

Me too :)




Understood. thanks for clarifying.




Hmmm...I guess we differ on that also. I see a HUGE difference in the way people try and use their camera's built in meter...like we agreed...just see any thread on exposure to illustrate. :)




I did assume that from the pictures posted in the OP...I could be wrong.

My experience however is that lighting is much more even than we give it credit for and I THINK that mentality comes from using a camera's built in meter and seeing the wide swings we get in that little needle.

I took my place of employment one day....all 15,000 sq feet of it and meterted it yard by yard....I found that it was amazingly consistent with very few really inconsistent spots.

I did the same with my camera's meter and depending on which way it was pointed I got WILDLY changing results...just what you'd expect given the different materials and colors the camera was seeing. And of course if I went by what it was telling me, I'd think that the lighting was MUCH more uneven than it really was.




yeah? It's not as if this is a surprise...see my last comment for this.

If the ceremony is happening as the sun is setting then take another reading every 5 or 6 minutes to check..same as you'd do with the camera only more accurate.

Really....these are non-issues...I've dealt with these scenarios and the hand held meter does fine in both.




See my last answer...none of what you just listed as issues are an issue.

So what if it gets cloudy? If you see the big fog bank roll in then pop the meter and reset....no biggie.

Same as you'd do with a camera's meter...only more accurate.




You're welcome and OP means "original post" :)

Dgratzinger Loc: Pennsylvania

Thanks! Will do!

George H Loc: Brooklyn, New York

DG,
Since you are using a Canon, I am familiar with it would tell you to go to the Kelvin setting of the camera. Now Kelvin is numbers not the little images for lighting. I would say that setting the number to about 4400 would solve your problem. If you need it warmer (redder) go higher, cooler (bluer) lower, eventually you get so used to setting it that it becomes second nature. Good Luck

dpullum Loc: Tampa Florida

WOW !!! there has not been so much controversy since I mentioned that there were more than two gods (Canon & Nikon) and that all took great photos and that it often took a microscope to determine the difference.

KISS, Keep it simple shooter... Cameras will do spot, area, 9 spot etc exposure metering... to be on the safe side bracket all shots and the exposure will be close on the button. If not then use the Brightness etc adj in your soft ware... carry as little as possible.

From what I have read, the white caps are the best way to set WB. The grey card is held in front of you,,, whereas the white cap sees the incoming light from what you plan on shooting.

BUT.. most important... shoot a lot and enjoy photography... but always keep it simple and be minimal in the junk you Cary.

ole sarg Loc: south florida

Could not agree more!

Yesterday saw a guy with a bit Canon M something with a 500mm lens and a tri pod that could have served as a firing platform for a 20mm cannon. Things must have weighted at least 50 pounds. Didn't look like too much fun to me. Then it started to rain. Now the guy was not young nor in shape. Kinda like me but I think I was in better shape. I grabbed the tripod, my wife the camera bag and he the camera with lens. We hightailed to a dry spot and he spent about 30 minutes with a shamie drying off the equipment.

Me, I had my Canon G10 got some nice shots of the wife next to some bird she knows the name of. Made her happy and got me a warm meal.

KISS

dpullum Loc: Tampa Florida

OLE SARGE: Canon G-10 great camera goes to show the P&S camera anin't dead yet. No mater how great the DSLR and $1000 Lens one has, the P&S takes better photos!? WHY? Because the DSLR is on the closet shelf or on the table of the guy who mugged the owner.

I gave a Panasonic TZ3, I think 5-7 Years old ! Dented, scratched, out lived two sets of batteries, Leica Lenses still work well, 10x optical,, yep little noise on blow up.. but it is ALWAYS on my belt pack with, extra battery, phone, money/ID. Ready at a moments notice to shoot. My back pack at home with my DSLR? Heavy filled with lenses, extension tubes, expensive flash etc. patiently waiting for a thief to break in...
PS: I converted my Canon G-2 to IR only. I reflect on the conversion, getting glass for filter most difficult part. If you wish to convert ever, keep in mind that (a chemist in pro life) I believe the HOT MIRROR metal reflective material will come off if you put the glass in aqua Riga (hydrochloric/nitric mix) greatly simplifying the conversion.

drjuice

In a pinch, Donna, you can get the same results by going outside and using the asphalt (NOT cement/concrete) of the street as your gray card. Just DO NOT use one that has been paved within the last year or so, i.e., not one that looks black or dark gray or even close to one of those.

v

rpavich Loc: West Virginia

But she's shooting indoors under certain lighting..how will going outside to shoot the WB in different lighting conditions help?

Dgratzinger Loc: Pennsylvania

Thanks George! I was looking at that but wasn't sure what the lighting in the church equated to. I actually took a white piece of cardboard and set custom yesterday for test. It looked good. Do I need to use an actual "gray" card to get this perfect? As for the exposure reading, I aimed at one of the green leaves for the reading, set using manual, made a slight minor adjustment and looked ok (I don't have a meter).
I did have to make minor adjustments when I got home (I can post later since I'm at work).
My settings are at about 1/28 f2.8, iso 300. I was told that I would have problems getting an 8x10 without blur using those settings. Is this true?

abc1234 Loc: Elk Grove Village, Illinois

Just because it looks white does not mean it actually is. What do you do tomorrow if you did not keep the cardboard? Evaluating the white balance is so difficult to do because you have a range of color temperatures that all look acceptable. You then pick one that looks nice and that is not necessarily what was in the scene. We avoid those problems in at least three proven ways: color temperature meter, gray card, and Expodisc. Meters are slow and expensive. Gray cards are cheap, convenient and read the color temperature at the camera. Expodiscs are intermediate in cost, fast and read the color temperature of the subject. Considering how much we spend on must-have accessories that get shoved in a drawer, you will use Expodisc at every shoot, save a lot of time in post-processing and come exceedingly close to the original colors. And no, the camera presets and being told use this or that color temperature are [i]not]/i] acceptable. They are arbitrary and you may as well flip a coin. AWB is better.

As for exposure, what you did is okay if your camera does not have a meter. The Canon 7D does have a meter so use it. Otherwise it is shoot and hope. On what basis did you conclude the exposure was good?

I cannot tell you if your 8x10's will be sharp. Sharpness is in the eyes of the beholder. However, at 1/28, you would be hard-pressed to get a sharp, hand-held photo. And at f/2.8, your focusing has to be dead nuts on because of the very shallow depth of field leaves little room for error. Even less if you are going long. At ISO 300 and these exposure settings, you are working near the limit of what any camera can produce in these circumstances.

You have a very challenging environment. I hope everyone's suggestions help you to tame it. Good luck.

PS We are concentrating on exposure and color balance here. Any thought as to how to pose the people? Here is a pretty informative link that rpavich posted recently.

http://www.lumitouch.com/benstudiotutorial/rules.html

rpavich Loc: West Virginia

Basically it comes down to this: wherever you shoot, the lighting will be different in some way. IF you want the WB to be spot on, you have to shoot a custom WB in every lighting situation. You also have to have something that's a KNOWN VALUE, that's part of the system. The grey card has the light from the particular situation shining on it as a reference.




You can shoot on anything that's a "medium" grey value. There are lots of ways to try and get a good exposure.




1/28 is a SLOOWWWW shutter speed under ANY CIRCUMSTANCES...trust me.

I can't hold 1/125 reliably let alone 1/30. If I brace and breath like I'm shooting a gun I can get a pretty decent shot with 1/60.


You are going to have to significanly raise your ISO to get a reasonable shutter speed and aperture.

IF you use f/2.8 your DOF will be thin also.

Using your settings as an example you can do the following:



1/60
f2.8,
iso 600

OR

1/125
f2.8,
iso 1200

OR

1/200
f2.8,
iso 1600

It's tough to know EXACTLY what a good exposure would be because your camera will make different decisions based on what color it's pointed at and not necessarily the actual lighting itself.

Dgratzinger Loc: Pennsylvania

As for exposure, what you did is okay if your camera does not have a meter. The Canon 7D does have a meter so use it. Otherwise it is shoot and hope. On what basis did you conclude the exposure was good?

Sorry, I used the meter built into the camera. I tweaked the settings until it it measured center.

I cannot tell you if your 8x10's will be sharp. Sharpness is in the eyes of the beholder. However, at 1/28, you would be hard-pressed to get a sharp, hand-held photo.
I'm using a tripod.

And at f/2.8, your focusing has to be dead nuts on because of the very shallow depth of field leaves little room for error. Even less if you are going long.
55mm

At ISO 300 and these exposure settings, you are working near the limit of what any camera can produce in these circumstances.

Yep, wondering if I should opt for flash?

You have a very challenging environment. I hope everyone's suggestions help you to tame it. Good luck.

PS We are concentrating on exposure and color balance here. Any thought as to how to pose the people? Here is a pretty informative link that rpavich posted recently.

http://www.lumitouch.com/benstudiotutorial/rules.html[/quote]

This is terrific advice, thanks so much!

abc1234 Loc: Elk Grove Village, Illinois

I have to respectfully disagree with my esteemed colleague rpavich on his statement "your camera will make different decisions based on what color it's pointed at and not necessarily the actual lighting itself." Perhaps I am misreading what he wrote but here is my take.

Exposure is about the amount of light, not its temperature. White balance is about color temperature and not the amount of light. Operationally, we measure and adjust for each separately. The light meter, hand-held or built-in, measures the amount of light. The AWB setting measures its color (i.e., temperature).

rpavich Loc: West Virginia

Yes, I think you were. I was addressing the exposure part of the question (my settings were.....) and I was trying to make the statement that with such a dark venue it's a good thing to KNOW what the exposure actually IS and not just guess.

As you know...you can point your camera at one person wearing a black Metallica shirt and dark pants and center the meter (thinking your exposure is correct)...and then swing around 5 deg to the person next to them (in the same exact light)who's in a white tux and get a 2 stop difference on the meter....given that the OP doesn't have 30 years experience, I thought that having a meter would eliminate this particular part of the confusion.

I wasn't addressing white balance.