Masters Series Dec. 2015 Comparing Two Christmas Images!
Dec 1, 2015 10:34:47 #
For December, we will try something a little different we will compare two images with a common theme: Christmas. Study the two images and share your thoughts.
These images were created by two artists working in the same era. Both were painters and they both used photographs to paint from.
Norman Rockwell, beloved artist of Saturday Evening Post fame, is well known to most of us. Rockwell did not make his own photographic captures but directed the photographers who captured the base shots from which he would paint. You can learn more about his life and work at http://www.nrm.org and about the legacy of his Christmas images at http://www.huffingtonpost.com/pia-de-jong/norman-rockwell-invented-christmas_b_4497741.html. The image featured here, Merry Christmas Grandma, was used in an advertisement, as were many of Rockwells most familiar images.
Russell Lee was a painter who used photography in a similar way, but became fully committed to photography when he worked for the Farm Security Administration during the Great Depression. You can learn more about his life and work here https://www.utexas.edu/features/2007/lee/ . The image featured here, Christmas Dinner in Iowa was part of this body of work. Read more about the backstory for this particular image here http://historymatters.gmu.edu/mse/photos/question4.html.
Heres some questions you might consider in forming your ideas and comparing these images:
*What do they describe or depict? What is the same or different?
*What is their tone or mood? Is one more powerful than the other in conveying mood?
*How do the images make you feel?
*Why do you think they were created as they were?
*If you read the backstory on the Russell Lee image, did it change your impressions?
*Does the fact that Rockwells image was created for advertising purposes change your impression?
These images were created by two artists working in the same era. Both were painters and they both used photographs to paint from.
Norman Rockwell, beloved artist of Saturday Evening Post fame, is well known to most of us. Rockwell did not make his own photographic captures but directed the photographers who captured the base shots from which he would paint. You can learn more about his life and work at http://www.nrm.org and about the legacy of his Christmas images at http://www.huffingtonpost.com/pia-de-jong/norman-rockwell-invented-christmas_b_4497741.html. The image featured here, Merry Christmas Grandma, was used in an advertisement, as were many of Rockwells most familiar images.
Russell Lee was a painter who used photography in a similar way, but became fully committed to photography when he worked for the Farm Security Administration during the Great Depression. You can learn more about his life and work here https://www.utexas.edu/features/2007/lee/ . The image featured here, Christmas Dinner in Iowa was part of this body of work. Read more about the backstory for this particular image here http://historymatters.gmu.edu/mse/photos/question4.html.
Heres some questions you might consider in forming your ideas and comparing these images:
*What do they describe or depict? What is the same or different?
*What is their tone or mood? Is one more powerful than the other in conveying mood?
*How do the images make you feel?
*Why do you think they were created as they were?
*If you read the backstory on the Russell Lee image, did it change your impressions?
*Does the fact that Rockwells image was created for advertising purposes change your impression?
"Merry Christmas Grandma" [url]http://collections.nrm.org/search.do?id=400271&db=object&view=full[/url]
!["Merry Christmas Grandma" [url]http://collections....](https://static.uglyhedgehog.com/upload/2015/12/1/1448984087614-rc.2011.3.10.28.jpg)
"Christmas Dinner in Iowa" [url]http://historymatters.gmu.edu/mse/photos/q4-p2.htm[/url]
!["Christmas Dinner in Iowa" [url]http://historymatt...](https://static.uglyhedgehog.com/upload/2015/12/1/thumb-1448984087807-6a00d83451bdba69e2017d3eb4428a970c_800wi.jpg)
(Download)
Dec 1, 2015 10:41:42 #
Oh, how I wish I knew how to put this up on Facebook. The two are stark contrasts and almost defy ordinary words. The Iowa picture told much about life during the Great Depression.
Dec 1, 2015 10:51:39 #
Sadly, the Iowa image is realistic. IMO the Rockwell image, pretty as it may be, NEVER was the truth.
Dec 1, 2015 10:55:32 #
Frank2013
Loc: San Antonio, TX. & Milwaukee, WI.
Had there been no title to either image I would see no comparison what soever between the two. One depicts joy and happiness and easily brings thoughts of Christmas while the other depicts daily struggle and survival. The first I am looking forward to. The latter makes me thankful for what I just had.
Dec 1, 2015 12:12:49 #
John_F wrote:
Oh, how I wish I knew how to put this up on Facebook. The two are stark contrasts and almost defy ordinary words. The Iowa picture told much about life during the Great Depression.
Well, I will have to study on that! I am no Facebook guru myself but surely there is a way.
It is a story of contrasts, and they are pretty stark, but they are real, even today in our time of plenty.
The URL's above the images can be used to find the originals, which are downloadable.
Dec 1, 2015 12:32:32 #
John_F wrote:
Oh, how I wish I knew how to put this up on Facebook. The two are stark contrasts and almost defy ordinary words. The Iowa picture told much about life during the Great Depression.
download the image, and then upload it to Facebook.
Dec 1, 2015 12:34:26 #
one is a photograph, many of the FSA photographers posed their subjects to get the mood they wanted.
the other is a painting, posed in the artist's mind.
One is close to, or actual reality, the other is an imaginative piece. what is there to compare?
the other is a painting, posed in the artist's mind.
One is close to, or actual reality, the other is an imaginative piece. what is there to compare?
Dec 1, 2015 12:45:09 #
jim quist wrote:
one is a photograph, many of the FSA photographers posed their subjects to get the mood they wanted.
the other is a painting, posed in the artist's mind.
One is close to, or actual reality, the other is an imaginative piece. what is there to compare?
the other is a painting, posed in the artist's mind.
One is close to, or actual reality, the other is an imaginative piece. what is there to compare?
Thanks for dropping in to comment!
Actually, Rockwell painted from photographs that he "directed" and oversaw on-site. And, as you noted, Lee sometimes orchestrated the poses for the photographs he took, including this one. So they have more in common than one might assume at first glance.
Dec 1, 2015 12:46:55 #
rjaywallace wrote:
Sadly, the Iowa image is realistic. IMO the Rockwell image, pretty as it may be, NEVER was the truth.
Thank you for dropping by to comment. It was interesting to me to read the linked article in Huffington Post about how Rockwell has influenced our American version of Christmas. Of course we each have to decide whether that is a good or bad thing, or something in between.
Dec 1, 2015 14:08:21 #
I'll come back to this again, but I see the two as; The Christmas I Want, and The Christmas I Have
We all live in a sort of imaginary world where we depict our lives a certain way, see things a certain way and remember things a certain way, but from experience we all know that what we think and reality don't always mesh.
Take Christmas dinner for example, I'm sure we would love to arrive at the front door, bundled up, with presents in hand to be greeted by our generous host. The house immaculate and decorated for the holiday spirit, the table set in all it's glory, and the lady of the house looking radiant while she prepares the holiday meal.
As you continue on you notice the decorated tree, boldly stated with is decorations, and add your many gifts to the growing pile below. Off go the kids, dressed in their holiday sweaters, kissing grandma on the cheek, jostling over board games, and surprisingly playing well with one another. Little billy cries in the corner, wanting ever more cranberry sauce, and every laughs as they juggle him from hip to hip to calm his whimpers, but who can help but laugh at the little one dressed as an elf.
Dinner smells amazing and looks immaculate as everyone sits down to... (I hate to interrupt this dream, but)...to a dinner a Denny's with the neighbors and their snot nosed kids who can't seem to understand chairs are for sitting on and not hiding under while they play their video games for all to hear. DIE, DIE, DIE goes the game as the dad ignores them and the mother seems to try to forget they are there and wonders why she can't order something hard to drink to quiet the noise, if even just for a moment.
Okay, so maybe our lives aren't that polar opposite, maybe they are, but the point is that these two images represent the Christmas we'd like to have and the Christmas so many still do today. If I take anything then from this post, these two images and the discussion at hand, it is to dream big, give to others and appreciate what you have!
Thank you so much for sharing this post and helping the discussion along. When I come back to this I hope to talk about the images themselves, the lighting, perspective, etc., but for now, you've given us a lot to think about and for that I thank you!
God Bless and Happy Holidays! S-
We all live in a sort of imaginary world where we depict our lives a certain way, see things a certain way and remember things a certain way, but from experience we all know that what we think and reality don't always mesh.
Take Christmas dinner for example, I'm sure we would love to arrive at the front door, bundled up, with presents in hand to be greeted by our generous host. The house immaculate and decorated for the holiday spirit, the table set in all it's glory, and the lady of the house looking radiant while she prepares the holiday meal.
As you continue on you notice the decorated tree, boldly stated with is decorations, and add your many gifts to the growing pile below. Off go the kids, dressed in their holiday sweaters, kissing grandma on the cheek, jostling over board games, and surprisingly playing well with one another. Little billy cries in the corner, wanting ever more cranberry sauce, and every laughs as they juggle him from hip to hip to calm his whimpers, but who can help but laugh at the little one dressed as an elf.
Dinner smells amazing and looks immaculate as everyone sits down to... (I hate to interrupt this dream, but)...to a dinner a Denny's with the neighbors and their snot nosed kids who can't seem to understand chairs are for sitting on and not hiding under while they play their video games for all to hear. DIE, DIE, DIE goes the game as the dad ignores them and the mother seems to try to forget they are there and wonders why she can't order something hard to drink to quiet the noise, if even just for a moment.
Okay, so maybe our lives aren't that polar opposite, maybe they are, but the point is that these two images represent the Christmas we'd like to have and the Christmas so many still do today. If I take anything then from this post, these two images and the discussion at hand, it is to dream big, give to others and appreciate what you have!
Thank you so much for sharing this post and helping the discussion along. When I come back to this I hope to talk about the images themselves, the lighting, perspective, etc., but for now, you've given us a lot to think about and for that I thank you!
God Bless and Happy Holidays! S-
Dec 1, 2015 14:49:23 #
Frank2013 wrote:
Had there been no title to either image I would see no comparison what soever between the two. One depicts joy and happiness and easily brings thoughts of Christmas while the other depicts daily struggle and survival. The first I am looking forward to. The latter makes me thankful for what I just had.
Thank you Frank. Does the fact that one's a photo and one's a painting make a difference, in your opinion?
Dec 1, 2015 15:05:25 #
Frank2013
Loc: San Antonio, TX. & Milwaukee, WI.
minniev wrote:
Thank you Frank. Does the fact that one's a photo and one's a painting make a difference, in your opinion?
No as you referred to them both as images, the subject of the images is what you wanted to discuss. I'm so dense I'm not sure I really understand what you are asking. I guess I go back to my statement about titles...without them how would one know they are related?
Dec 1, 2015 15:44:51 #
Norman was a master at his craft, an artist to many, and as such it's interesting to look at his work.
Take the lighting for instance, well lit, even throughout, with little to no shadow, so if this were a photograph I would assume he didn't use an on camera flash. The light is too soft, too even, so he'd have to have a lightbox or a series of lights in the room to make it so. One to ponder.
The perspective is more of an interest to me though, as the 'photographer' seems to be quite tall compared to the subjects, and seems to have caught the entry on the spur of the moment, with the family looking up and shooting the frame over the railing. I'm still trying to wrap my thoughts around why he chose this perspective, but assume he did not want to shoot the subjects straight on, as if posed. If correct, there's an interesting lesson to be learned here when making candids.
The colors are complimentary and reflect the holiday spirit, as does the setting and the mood. What else is there to say about a masterpiece?
Russell on the other hand captured the Christmas That Is for many, and yet did it in a way that, while showing their poverty does not take away from the family bond.
From the setting I have to image this was not a staged image, the children look too relaxed, too at peace with the moment, so he caught this in the act, and if you look carefully, and look past the lack of, you can see the love and joy this family has to offer. The kids are clean, with clothes that look well mended, the table set, sharing with one another and food for all.
In another life, with color added and a crop or two, I wonder if this could pass for the 'kids table' at so many a house during the holiday season. In evaluating the image though, it appears he knelt down to the children's level, a truth so many photographer forget, and showed the scene from their perspective. Always a smart move!
The lighting seems even, maybe a bit from above as you might expect a lamp or bulb weighing in at an adult level, but even all the same giving soft light over the children's faces. Looking at the shine on the water pump though I'm of the impression a flash bulb was used to fill the void left by the otherwise bare bulb. Still, the light is even and well used.
The lack of color, and almost pure greyness intrigues me, leaving me to wonder when it was taken and of course leaving it timeless. While not every image holds up to a black and white treatment, the tonal value is used well here and adds emphasis to the weight of the situation.
There's a lot to be learned from these two images, and when I have a bit more time, will be intrigued to read the associated links minniev has provided for us! S-
Take the lighting for instance, well lit, even throughout, with little to no shadow, so if this were a photograph I would assume he didn't use an on camera flash. The light is too soft, too even, so he'd have to have a lightbox or a series of lights in the room to make it so. One to ponder.
The perspective is more of an interest to me though, as the 'photographer' seems to be quite tall compared to the subjects, and seems to have caught the entry on the spur of the moment, with the family looking up and shooting the frame over the railing. I'm still trying to wrap my thoughts around why he chose this perspective, but assume he did not want to shoot the subjects straight on, as if posed. If correct, there's an interesting lesson to be learned here when making candids.
The colors are complimentary and reflect the holiday spirit, as does the setting and the mood. What else is there to say about a masterpiece?
Russell on the other hand captured the Christmas That Is for many, and yet did it in a way that, while showing their poverty does not take away from the family bond.
From the setting I have to image this was not a staged image, the children look too relaxed, too at peace with the moment, so he caught this in the act, and if you look carefully, and look past the lack of, you can see the love and joy this family has to offer. The kids are clean, with clothes that look well mended, the table set, sharing with one another and food for all.
In another life, with color added and a crop or two, I wonder if this could pass for the 'kids table' at so many a house during the holiday season. In evaluating the image though, it appears he knelt down to the children's level, a truth so many photographer forget, and showed the scene from their perspective. Always a smart move!
The lighting seems even, maybe a bit from above as you might expect a lamp or bulb weighing in at an adult level, but even all the same giving soft light over the children's faces. Looking at the shine on the water pump though I'm of the impression a flash bulb was used to fill the void left by the otherwise bare bulb. Still, the light is even and well used.
The lack of color, and almost pure greyness intrigues me, leaving me to wonder when it was taken and of course leaving it timeless. While not every image holds up to a black and white treatment, the tonal value is used well here and adds emphasis to the weight of the situation.
There's a lot to be learned from these two images, and when I have a bit more time, will be intrigued to read the associated links minniev has provided for us! S-
Dec 1, 2015 16:50:11 #
Frank2013 wrote:
I guess I go back to my statement about titles...without them how would one know they are related?
You wouldn't. You'd know the Rockwell is about Christmas because it screams out about the kind of Christmas many of us grew up either experiencing or more likely, wishing for. The hard truth is that even today for many people, Christmas is hardly different from any other day, and they are grateful to have food however humble. In the era in which these images were made, there were possibly even more differences between the haves and have nots.
Dec 1, 2015 17:58:24 #
the one has aspects of things, materialism, and such. And yet it also screams joy and happiness and family.
The other is quiet. It is about peace and needs (rather than about wants). It is soothing and it presents hope and confidence and definitely sharing.
The other is quiet. It is about peace and needs (rather than about wants). It is soothing and it presents hope and confidence and definitely sharing.
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