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High ISO - Not such a good deal
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Oct 18, 2015 11:32:24   #
camerapapi Loc: Miami, Fl.
 
oldtigger wrote:
1600


Another mistake! I should look at the file and not trust my old memory.
I made others at ISO 3200 as the night went on and got progressively darker.
I dare to say that for a JPEG this is a great file and thank you for the correction.

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Oct 18, 2015 11:40:07   #
BHC Loc: Strawberry Valley, JF, USA
 
Rongnongno wrote:
Because that user is known to flood a thread with non nonsensical information and deviate the original intent. Usually another use shows up and then there is no end to it, until I have the thread simply destroyed by the admin, once and for all.

I had to that for the thread I made on 'possible stacking use'.

OK! Actually I was just trying to see how far he'd go with his unrelated nonsense, but I'll be glad to back off.

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Oct 18, 2015 12:26:24   #
Rongnongno Loc: FL
 
Mogul wrote:
OK! Actually I was just trying to see how far he'd go with his unrelated nonsense, but I'll be glad to back off.

Thank you.

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Oct 18, 2015 15:04:18   #
jenny Loc: in hiding:)
 
Ron, Like the way you look into subjects for your own satisfaction and then pass it on for fair discussion. Agreed, DR is not often mentioned re. high ISO ,and I suppose that's because it is not immediately visible. DR requires a controlled test of one's camera on comparison shots.

If you don't mind, since you are still working on this subject before final statements are made, I do have one little point to mention. You make several in you opening statements, then 2 paragraphs. In the second, you claim that in choosing JPEG, one is deciding to forego info the mfr., "Does not want you to have". I believe it is really info that both the mfr. and the p-grapher agree is simply unnecessary.

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Oct 18, 2015 15:32:17   #
Rongnongno Loc: FL
 
I wrote:
While some will dismiss it as they use JPG so, who cares, I am limited anyway, well, you should care. Your preciously limited JPG is influenced even more than you first realize. To create a JPG a camera uses the sensor capture, in other words, the raw data the manufacturer does not want you to have. The result is that a JPG camera produced is more deteriorated* than a raw capture.


jenny wrote:
If you don't mind, since you are still working on this subject before final statements are made, I do have one little point to mention. You make several in you opening statements, then 2 paragraphs. In the second, you claim that in choosing JPEG, one is deciding to forego info the mfr., "Does not want you to have". I believe it is really info that both the mfr. and the p-grapher agree is simply unnecessary.

That statement is for the JPG shooters who do not have a choice between JPG and raw. The other JPG shooters are the GES creators I really do not like. The...

You are correct I need to differentiate between the two types of shooters as their conditions are different. I need to correct this. I understand myself but it is hard to comprehend as I wrote it.

I do see an implied complicity between GES producers and manufacturers by simply refusing to pull the best possible capture simply because... Never-mind I stated clearly what I think of GES producers.

As to manufacturer being responsible for not offering raw as an option I am covering it under another page **

-----
* Off topic but thank you, re-reading allowed me to spot the misspelling.
** I have a page than compares the two formats (not published for feedback yet)


====
Edit: I'll post a redraft and/or will consider submissions* on this part with the caveat that both methods of capturing an image is mentioned and the manufacturer failing is mentioned.

-----
* Credit will be given if used, even modified.

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Oct 18, 2015 15:35:11   #
CatMarley Loc: North Carolina
 
camerapapi wrote:
I am not a techno nut nor I care very much for the high ISO noise since in the first place I am not a high ISO shooter.
I do not feel limited shooting at ISO 3200 and it could be because my "high" ISO was ISO 400 whch I did not use very often precisely because of the grain, even using medium format. In my case I consider a godsend having ISO 800 in digital cameras like it is today that a simple pass through any noise reduction software will clean the files.
I read on a daily basis of the poor performance of JPEG files and my experience has been different to the point that I am using JPEG more often than RAW. I consider modern JPEG as excellent files as long as certain precautions are taken and we all know which they are.
The dynamic range of a JPEG could be limited but it has not been a problem for me. I use D-lighting with software and the results have been very pleasant and shadows lend themselves to a better control than highlights allowing easily a 2 stops adjustments without any destructive effect on the file. Highlights can also be controlled but I prefer to get it right in camera during exposure.
Some of my beautiful enlargements have come from original JPEG images that I save to TIFF. Under certain conditions I use RAW but JPEG has cut significantly the time I spend at the computer and I am very pleased with my results.
Obviously, this is only my opinion and others will differ from mine.
The file I include is from folkloric dancers in San Juan, Puerto Rico, shot at ISO 3200. The original is a JPEG.
I am not a techno nut nor I care very much for the... (show quote)


Beautiful image. The lighting preserves the mood of the moment. It could not have been done without an extended ISO.

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Oct 18, 2015 15:38:18   #
Rongnongno Loc: FL
 
camerapapi wrote:
.../...

I have asked the admin to remove the image from your post. Please read my signature.

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Oct 18, 2015 15:44:18   #
CatMarley Loc: North Carolina
 
Rongnongno wrote:
I have asked the admin to remove the image from your post. Please read my signature.


I for one think the image was important in support of the post. And in view of your attitude, most unfriendly!

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Oct 18, 2015 15:44:29   #
Rongnongno Loc: FL
 
CatMarley wrote:
Beautiful image. The lighting preserves the mood of the moment. It could not have been done without an extended ISO.

Please stay on topic. This is not a gallery area.

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Oct 18, 2015 15:47:15   #
Rongnongno Loc: FL
 
New draft to answer Jenny's justified comment.

Please address this as you see fit.

I re - wrote:
While some will dismiss this page as they have no choice in the camera format used others, who use JPG as a choice, will react with something akin "who cares, I am limited anyway". Either way you should care. Your JPG is influenced more than you realize. To create a JPG a camera uses the sensor capture. In other words, the raw data the manufacturer does not want you to have (for those who have no capture format choice) is used to create a JPG. The sensor, whatever it is has a dynamic range that will vary. The result is that a JPG camera produced is more deteriorated than a raw capture.
While some will dismiss this page as they have no ... (show quote)

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Oct 18, 2015 16:04:43   #
jenny Loc: in hiding:)
 
Excuse my ignorance of the term GES shooter, I must have been out to lunch when that one was invented. In all seriousness I certainly do not wish to derail this thread, but you seem to have zeroed in on mfrs.that do not include RAW as denying p-graphers something. That, too, is their choice, if they don't want to buy the product. However, I was talking about those who deliberately choose to shoot JPEG, as has already been pointed out by others here.
This thread is about dynamic range. Nothing else. You need to make it clear that you are not someone in the "RAW camp", as that is what it appears.
If you really visit that awful controversy, the thread is doomed, since to tell the truth, processing RAW is pitting one's own expertise, or lack of it, against the very intelligent people who developed the wonderful technology we have. We have all seen many horrific examples of that. Granted, I may have mistaken your intentions, since I haven't a clue as to what a "GES" person is.

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Oct 18, 2015 16:11:35   #
Rongnongno Loc: FL
 
jenny wrote:
Excuse my ignorance of the term GES shooter, I must have been out to lunch when that one was invented. In all seriousness I certainly do not wish to derail this thread, but you seem to have zeroed in on mfrs.that do not include RAW as denying p-graphers something. That, too, is their choice, if they don't want to buy the product. However, I was talking about those who deliberately choose to shoot JPEG, as has already been pointed out by others here.
This thread is about dynamic range. Nothing else. You need to make it clear that you are not someone in the "RAW camp", as that is what it appears.
If you really visit that awful controversy, the thread is doomed, since to tell the truth, processing RAW is pitting one's own expertise, or lack of it, against the very intelligent people who developed the wonderful technology we have. We have all seen many horrific examples of that. Granted, I may have mistaken your intentions, since I haven't a clue as to what a "GES" person is.
Excuse my ignorance of the term GES shooter, I mus... (show quote)

Err... I am a firm advocate of the raw format. I do not slam those who have no choice either because their cameras are deliberately limited or because their subject matter needs fast burst of capturing a scene. The others? GES producers.

Manufacturers do not give the raw options for the simple reason that if they did all their claims would be debunked. (Digital zooms, exaggerated pixel counts.... Folks are misled.

GES is indeed an acronym I created. I got tired of spelling out my feelings toward this so... I created GES...

=====
Edit: Read this answer I just typed... That can give you what I think more than any other explanation here.

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Oct 18, 2015 16:19:33   #
DirtFarmer Loc: Escaped from the NYC area, back to MA
 
Rongnongno wrote:
...two major problems ...

The first one is known to all "Noise".

The second is about the dynamic range and that is largely unmentioned simply because few are aware of it.


IMO there is a third consideration.

Several years ago I got a D4 and of course had to try it out at high ISO. I do a lot of indoor event shots, so I have ample opportunity to use high ISO. So at one event they were doing a power point presentation with the lights out. Another photographer was doing her thing so I tried a few shots of her at various "sensitivities". I found that up to ISO 50K I could get usable shots (with a lot of PP to mitigate the noise -- the dynamic range of the scene was not a problem). Above ISO 50K the color balance went to hell quickly, and was very difficult to compensate for in PP. Other tests allowed me to get usable shots at ISO 200K, but only if I could have gotten the same shot at ISO 50K. Note that this was a quick test, not an exhaustive study.

For most of my indoor work I use ISO 4K-12K (or flash). Excursions to 50K are for emergency purposes only. Excursions to 200k are very rare.

My images are used on the web and in flyers and such things, so high resolution is rarely needed. I can therefore take a noisy image and do some noise processing and downsampling and get acceptable results. This may not work well if your images are going into large prints.

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Oct 18, 2015 16:23:50   #
Rongnongno Loc: FL
 
DirtFarmer wrote:
IMO there is a third consideration.

Several years ago I got a D4 and of course had to try it out at high ISO. I do a lot of indoor event shots, so I have ample opportunity to use high ISO. So at one event they were doing a power point presentation with the lights out. Another photographer was doing her thing so I tried a few shots of her at various "sensitivities". I found that up to ISO 50K I could get usable shots (with a lot of PP to mitigate the noise -- the dynamic range of the scene was not a problem). Above ISO 50K the color balance went to hell quickly, and was very difficult to compensate for in PP. Other tests allowed me to get usable shots at ISO 200K, but only if I could have gotten the same shot at ISO 50K.

For most of my indoor work I use ISO 4K-12K (or flash). Excursions to 50K are for emergency purposes only. Excursions to 200k are very rare.

My images are used on the web and in flyers and such things, so high resolution is rarely needed. I can therefore take a noisy image and do some noise processing and downsampling and get acceptable results. This may not work well if your images are going into large prints.
IMO there is a third consideration. br br Several... (show quote)

I never went that high so did not notice anything. Thank you for your input. I will need to verify it first then add it, if verified. (I use three different sources to confirm anything - never UHH ~ too many contradiction from real pros to other less informed folks)

I added this to the page:
Quote:
A third problem was mentioned during a forum discussion. It concerns very high ISO (above 50k): The color balance is thrown out of whack. Since I have verified that yet I cannot confirm this part at the moment yet I put it here because if true this is another important reason not to push the ISO to extremes.

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Oct 18, 2015 16:44:30   #
jenny Loc: in hiding:)
 
Ron...Your acronym...it is known to everyone here except me? Are you going to reveal it?
The title of this thread is "High ISO - Not such a good deal" Let us pursue that subject then, with the subject of DR having been somewhat neglected. without acronyms known only to yourself perhaps, and certainly not your "feelings" regarding people who choose to shoot JPEG images.

Just to add a couple simple facts here,yes there are variables. Cameras differ . And yes, I did see one camera listed as having a range of 12EV in some camera review site recently. Test your own camera(s), work within your limits, with whatever degree of noise you can tolerate if noise is objectionable. (We used to seek it deliberately sometimes on film. I even have a grainy film Art filter in my Oly to emulate it, though have never used any of their filters.)
Test your own cameras ,use them to take or make pictures any way you like with your unhappy narrow view of other people you may dislike for their choices? It seems time for me to unwatch this thread, sorry, had thought it would be informative.

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