Billyspad Loc: The Philippines

No Frank you are right. A brush is worked via the hand and eye and adjustments can be made at any time. What is produced is a one off original.
Press the camera shutter and what is recorded is what you get. Its recorded by a machine that cannot think or respond to feelings. And one can print off as many identical copies as you wish.

And of course we can all take a picture of sorts with a camera but probably not so good with the oils or a chunk of marble and a cold chisel. So are we really to believe all who use a camera are artists?
Geez man the world is full of artists and I did not notice it before! Silly ol Billy huh.

selmslie Loc: Fernandina Beach, FL, USA

Just a mechanical device? You could say the same about a gun but the response might be that, "Guns don't kill people - people kill people."

Although the camera is a mechanical device the concept may be too narrowly stated.

A camera can do exactly the same thing for a photographer with a good imagination as it does for one with little imagination or artistic sense at all.

The difference is really in what the photographer brings to the moment in recognizing what will make a good image and then dealing with the resulting capture. It has as much to do with pre-visualization (without which Adams's images would have been ordinary) as with post-processing (without which Adams's images would also have been ordinary).

You could, of course, consider both of those activities to be part of the craft of photography, but it's difficult to separate the craft from the art. Titian was an artist but how many people have a color that they crafted named after them?

Billyspad Loc: The Philippines

Its not difficult unless you wish to make it so.
Photography is a craft not art. Get ya head around that one and you will understand my take on the subject.
Quoting Picasso mentioning Titian etc makes no difference. We were asked for opinions and that is mine reached after 63 years on this earth many spent studying my fellow man
Ansell was a master craftsman totally on top and at ease with his equipment. He started with a good snap. The crowd gasped "Billy said Adams took snaps". Yep he did so do you and so do I. His snaps were a damn site better than mine but he was not an artist.
Not sure what you consider yourself Scotty but having seen your portfolio and your website you take a decent enough snap and many are rather nice. You are not an artist. Nor am I nor are 99% of the Hog membership. The percentage of Photographers is maybe a little higher but not much.
So accept this as my view please, quote or mention no more folks who are pushing up daisies they are not relevant to my view.
If it tramples on someones feelings cos they are desperate to be seen as an artist I apologize but you have dialed the number for Billyspad Towers where the truth is spoken at all times minus the frills some seem to want.

I cannot think of a clearer way to explain myself or maybe lack the vocabulary but to the vast majority here just accept you aint photographers and you sure as hell are not artists!

minniev Loc: MIssissippi

Perhaps it is true that the argument is silly and somewhat circular, but it is indeed continuing to draw responses, some which tread new ground like Jgordon's. Can the art be separated from the term artist? Might not a rather boring everyday person (like myself) on occasion produce something worthy of being considered art while still considering themselves a teacher, a gardener or a bum? Payment has nothing to do with it, I don't think. I sell photographs that I don't consider art, yet they produce some income; still I don't think of myself as a photographer or an artist but rather an old lady who dabbles in the art of photography. My one image that has sold more than the others is one that I've had that "art" feel about because of the peculiarities of its capture and its symbolism. It isn't a beautiful scene, but a rather ugly one, though provocative. If nothing else, that suggests some impact, enough to separate the fool from his money...

selmslie Loc: Fernandina Beach, FL, USA

Some might find that statement as questionable as saying that all photography is art. The truth must lie somewhere between those two extremes.


If you learn about how he photographed you will realize that the snap is not where he started.

I will grant that he was a master of his craft and that he was not as much of an artist as Weston, Stieglitz, Strand and a host of others. But Adams had a good eye for a potential image, just like any other good artist.

Even though the capture was near the beginning of his process, there was a lot of thought and preparation preceding it besides simply lugging his equipment to a remote location. The same can be said for anyone who shoots still life, who supplies their own lighting and even for some seemingly casual photography like that of Henri Cartier-Bresson.

Uuglypher Loc: South Dakota (East River)

And so it goes! As has been the case for (almost) forever, this eternal unresolveable dispute ("what is art?") is thrown into a cocked hat by the unavoidable requirement that all related concepts and hierarchically equivalent realms ("artist", " artisan", "craft", " craftsman") are rightly deserving of equivalent attention, characterization, and definition.

Aggressively puff-chested, vigorously self-importantly proposed assertions become more-and-more ludicrous as their supposed vital importance is more-and-more heatedly asserted.

Why is not having had the opportunity to assert one's opinion sufficient?

Is it that the most vehement, angry participants in the endless discussion actually demand agreement with the asserter's assertion?

Lotsa luck!

Have a nice day.

Dave

St3v3M Loc: 35,000 feet

Define Art
http://www.google.com/search?q=define+art

Billyspad Loc: The Philippines

Scotty I did ask you NOT to just quote from others or use them to back up your points. A bunch of guys who donned wooden overcoats many years ago and are therefore not available for questioning are not relevant to my viewpoint. My views are those I have reached after much thought without an awful lot of influence from, or the need to quote, the dead.
Try giving Scotty's views without including the usual bunch of stiffs. OK

selmslie Loc: Fernandina Beach, FL, USA

I quoted nobody and cited some photographers that I consider to be as much artists as craftsmen.

I think I have made it clear that I can understand your view but that I think it is too extreme and exclusive.

When I was your age I was more certain of my opinions and, of course, when I was 15 I knew everything. Now I'm not so sure.

jim hill Loc: Springfield, IL

I think you may have a problem with Billy's bravado. I do find it refreshing that there are naysayers and ayesayers (coined term) and that he speaks what ever is his conviction unapologetically.

He is a self deprecating artist, whether or not one likes his output is beside the point. I think he, like all of us, is trying to justify existence which is clearly impossible a task for anyone - try as we may.

After we are all gone, which in the scheme, won't be long, who will remember that we made any difference. Only a few friends and family and they will soon be gone also. Only a few will be remembered for their deeds, good or evil, and for the rest of us it will all be forgotten.

My point is, bluster may be our attempt to make a mark while we are here. It may be our attempt to be relevant. What else is there before we enter oblivion. All we can count on is what we now have. Tomorrow may never come. That is true for the hundreds of thousands of us who leave this existence every day or so.

In the scheme of things it's irrelevant what anyone thinks about the camera being a tool of an artist. What is important is that we are all trying to achieve something with our light catchers that will bring some joy to us and to our kind. There will be those who go about it without saying anything and there will be those who "methinks doth protest too loudly."
I hope to be somewhere in the middle - at least that's what I try for with my verbiage - while going my merry way making images that please me in my way.

For this forum I don't find that a lot of people attack the images. The photographers I appreciate who respond, like you have done for me, is to offer ideas that will make my image cleaner and stronger. No matter the image. I believe that no one has any right to direct seeing. Only the manner in which that seeing (image) is accomplished should, in my opinion, be brought to scrutiny.

Pixelpixie88 Loc: Northern Minnesota

I agree with you Frank...maybe I can't pick up a paint brush..but I can take my camera and go from a RAW to a finished photo that I can be proud of. I created that finished look...which can perhaps be done different ways. (As we have seen some very talented people in here do!)

Frank2013 Loc: San Antonio, TX. & Milwaukee, WI.

No problem with Mr. Spad's bravado or anything else at all Mr. Hill. I was just trying to point out to you that from my understanding of his posts, I think he does not see the camera as a artist's tool. See his response to me at the top of the page. I do however understand your outlook.

jenny Loc: in hiding:)

* * * * *
Yep, 'nuf said!!! More than 'nuf said!
:thumbup:

RiverNan Loc: Eastern Pa

What is most interesting to me in this conversation/thread is the strength of belief...and effort to be convincing.
A child picks up some crayons and creates something on paper...
A man takes some paint and splatters it on a canvas
A women carts wool and knits a sweater
A chef mixes up some ingredients and creates a new recipe
better yet the chef takes some tomatoes and grapes and smashes them on a canvas then adds a few peas for green.
I go to my local farm, pick up the last of the fall produce, grab a basket and scarf, arrange it all on my table, wait for the light to strike it, which I'm sure it will, since it shines through the window everyday at about the same time. I take my Olympus omd e5, make a lens selection, adjust the camera settings, compose within the frame and click. hmmmmmm move a few things around, recompose...hurry the light will soon change. do this a few times....download all to a computer...select a favorite and consider pp...oops maybe I need to remove a blemish from the winesap or granny smith...maybe not.
I print it, frame it, bring it to a place that hangs some of my ART WORK (couldn't resist). I don't really care what YOU call it, art, craft, photo or snap..I might care if you called it garbage. What I care about most is that someone likes it enough to pay for it, take it home and hang it on their wall.

Billyspad Loc: The Philippines

Mmmmm Methinks in reality you care very much what folks call it. Otherwise why write such a long post?
Look ol'Billy is full of kindness and owes you one cos he made a mistake with your gender once. So you are cordailly invited to Billy Towers for a quiet meal prepared by Mrs Billy an overnight stay and a tour of the area the following day.
However all that would make no difference to my belief that what you produce is not art and you are a master craftslady with a beady eye firmly and quite rightly set on the commercial possibilities of what you do
Please bear in mind that the other dinner guests may not be so kind if they think another diner is deluding themselves with false titles etc.
Bring a portrait prime lens if you possess one and we will find some interesting characters for to practice your craft on.