Crop sensor vs Full frame...extra reach myth?
Apr 4, 2012 10:18:58 #
I've been monkeying around with getting a refurbished 5DMkII next year and have been looking over articles about cropped sensors vs full frame, and something just jumped out at me.
Countless times I read a phrase similar to this:
"....I like the crop sensor cameras...especially on a long zoom, they extend my reach..."
Alluding to the illusion that you are seeing a longer focal length due to the crop factor.
But isn't that bogus?
Wouldn't taking the same shot on a full frame camera and cropping the center out be EXACLY the same thing?
In other words...this is not really an advantage at all. Objects aren't bigger in the frame...it's just the "pre-crop" that the camera is don't (for lack of a better term)
Right?
It would seem to me that having a full frame would be an advantage as you could fill LESS of the frame and have more central area for better cropping flexibility later on.
Countless times I read a phrase similar to this:
"....I like the crop sensor cameras...especially on a long zoom, they extend my reach..."
Alluding to the illusion that you are seeing a longer focal length due to the crop factor.
But isn't that bogus?
Wouldn't taking the same shot on a full frame camera and cropping the center out be EXACLY the same thing?
In other words...this is not really an advantage at all. Objects aren't bigger in the frame...it's just the "pre-crop" that the camera is don't (for lack of a better term)
Right?
It would seem to me that having a full frame would be an advantage as you could fill LESS of the frame and have more central area for better cropping flexibility later on.
Apr 4, 2012 10:39:22 #
In theory, yes. But the sensors are not the same in a DX camera a an FX camera. I use a D7000 (DX crop) and a D700 (FX-full frame sensor). The image quality & noise between these two is very close . The D7000 has a 16 megapixel sensor and the D700 is 12 megapixels. That's not a huge difference in megapixels, but if you take a photo with a 70-200 (D7000 DX crop equivalent 105-300) and shoot the same image with the D700, cropping to equal the image taken by the D7000, you would lose even more pixels, reducing the resolution. I like the D700 for portraits and wide angle use. The D7000 is great for the extra reach (and video).
Apr 4, 2012 10:51:42 #
Goofy is right on. Essentially a crop sensor does crop the center of the image. But with the D7000 you have a 16MP image. To take the same crop from the same D700 (full frame) image, you would only have an 8MP image to work with. The crop sensor does have advantages if you are shooting long glass at all.
(BUT, the D800 seems to negate that advantage with its 36MP Full Frame sensor, it would give you a 24MP cropped image in the same situation.)
(BUT, the D800 seems to negate that advantage with its 36MP Full Frame sensor, it would give you a 24MP cropped image in the same situation.)
Apr 4, 2012 10:52:36 #
MT Shooter wrote:
Thanks for doing the math for me MT.Goofy is right on. Essentially a crop sensor does crop the center of the image. But with the D7000 you have a 16MP image. To take the same crop from the same D700 (full frame) image, you would only have an 8MP image to work with. The crop sensor does have advantages if you are shooting long glass at all.
Apr 4, 2012 11:05:17 #
GoofyNewfie wrote:
MT Shooter wrote:
Thanks for doing the math for me MT.Goofy is right on. Essentially a crop sensor does crop the center of the image. But with the D7000 you have a 16MP image. To take the same crop from the same D700 (full frame) image, you would only have an 8MP image to work with. The crop sensor does have advantages if you are shooting long glass at all.
thanks,I think I get it; though I don't know how much worse the FF crop would be in real life....and for crying out loud! Speak "Canon-speak" will you???? ;)
Apr 4, 2012 11:14:58 #
Well this is interesting.
Ken Rockwell has an article about just this; the quality difference between the two sensor sizes.
Even if you don't read the article and just roll your mouse over the shots to see the differences it's eye opening.
http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/full-frame-advantage.htm
Ken Rockwell has an article about just this; the quality difference between the two sensor sizes.
Even if you don't read the article and just roll your mouse over the shots to see the differences it's eye opening.
http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/full-frame-advantage.htm
Apr 4, 2012 11:15:04 #
rpavich wrote:
It's not allowed. We're part of the "dark side". We've taken the oath. Besides, it's easier to do the math in our heads with Nikon DX, it's 1.5x. Canon DX is 1.6x (not to forget that weird 1.3X) We can spend more of our inherently immense brain power on the creative side that way. :lol:thanks,I think I get it; though I don't know how much worse the FF crop would be in real life....and for crying out loud! Speak "Canon-speak" will you???? ;)
Seriously, at work we have 10 Canon Rebel XS's to lend to students. They work great. The sudents seem to understand them pretty easily.
Apr 4, 2012 11:17:58 #
rpavich wrote:
quote=GoofyNewfie quote=MT Shooter Goofy is righ... (show quote)
Whirrrr, whirrrrrrrrr, whirrr, click!
Apr 4, 2012 11:22:15 #
rpavich wrote:
Well this is interesting.
Ken Rockwell has an article about just this; the quality difference between the two sensor sizes.
Even if you don't read the article and just roll your mouse over the shots to see the differences it's eye opening.
http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/full-frame-advantage.htm
Ken Rockwell has an article about just this; the quality difference between the two sensor sizes.
Even if you don't read the article and just roll your mouse over the shots to see the differences it's eye opening.
http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/full-frame-advantage.htm
It is interesting but's almost 5 years old.
They don't make the Canon 5D, Nikon D200 anymore.
Wish he'd do an update.
I like the way he shoots real things and not test charts.
Apr 4, 2012 11:23:47 #
MT Shooter wrote:
quote=rpavich quote=GoofyNewfie quote=MT Shoote... (show quote)
and here is the sound of the D7000:
Want to hear it again?
Apr 4, 2012 11:32:26 #
MT Shooter wrote:
quote=rpavich quote=GoofyNewfie quote=MT Shoote... (show quote)
Oh man...that is hysterical!!!!
After I "got" it...that is. :)
Apr 4, 2012 11:32:50 #
Apr 4, 2012 11:47:52 #
My experience is that the cropped sensored cameras have extra reach with the same lenses, and when the lenses (or comparible focal length) mounted to a full sensor, the reach is less.
I ran across this on the weekend when photographing an Olympic qualifying event with 5 other photographers. We were using different cameras, but most were cropped sensors with the exception of a couple. Plus, I was fortunate enough to use my cropped sensor camera, and then take the lens and put on a full-sensored camera for part of it. I immediately noticed that for this event, I had better reach with the crop.
What the full sensor provided, in this case, was that it also had a much larger RAW image to work from, and so you could crop down without degradation of quality when compared to the cropped sensor camera.
My main impression was that the full sensored camera was overhyped, at least for being full sensored. To me, that wasn't a plus after having the experience. I was actually happier using a Canon 7D than to be using the 1D or whatever one of the other photographers was using (it might've been a 5D Mark II, but not certain of that).
I ran across this on the weekend when photographing an Olympic qualifying event with 5 other photographers. We were using different cameras, but most were cropped sensors with the exception of a couple. Plus, I was fortunate enough to use my cropped sensor camera, and then take the lens and put on a full-sensored camera for part of it. I immediately noticed that for this event, I had better reach with the crop.
What the full sensor provided, in this case, was that it also had a much larger RAW image to work from, and so you could crop down without degradation of quality when compared to the cropped sensor camera.
My main impression was that the full sensored camera was overhyped, at least for being full sensored. To me, that wasn't a plus after having the experience. I was actually happier using a Canon 7D than to be using the 1D or whatever one of the other photographers was using (it might've been a 5D Mark II, but not certain of that).
Apr 4, 2012 11:51:17 #
Apr 4, 2012 11:55:02 #
les_stockton wrote:
My experience is that the cropped sensored cameras... (show quote)
this is what I'm not understanding...
You said that the crop sensor had more "reach" but it actually doesn't...that's what's confusing me.
If you sit with your back against the wall in your living room and look out your picture window at an object on your sidewalk, and then you tape brown paper over the edges of the window to reveal only the center...the object isn't closer at all and hasn't gotten bigger or been magnified....it just "fills the new apparent frame size because the frame got smaller"..
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