Grappling with thee Lightroom
Aug 17, 2015 00:39:34 #
Ok I have 2 big thick different books on Lightroom. I really want to understand this first stumbling block or I can't get on. Sources say that lightroom doesn't use the master file in cataloging...says some photographers deleted master files after importing to lightroom and lost all their originals. On the other hand says use an external hard drive instead of using the default "My Pictures" folder on the computer hard drive as it can quickly exceed 100 gigabytes. Also says to change where you download your camera pictures, because when you plug it in for download, Lightroom will send them automatically to "My Pictures"
So how can I tell what I am dealing with here? Are there "thumbtack" image files being used instead of real master files? Do these abbreviated versions have separate file extensions instead of jpg, nef, cr2, etc? The deeper I get the more confusing it all becomes and generates more questions, more different pages in books explaining. So far all I get from lightroom is insanity.
So how can I tell what I am dealing with here? Are there "thumbtack" image files being used instead of real master files? Do these abbreviated versions have separate file extensions instead of jpg, nef, cr2, etc? The deeper I get the more confusing it all becomes and generates more questions, more different pages in books explaining. So far all I get from lightroom is insanity.
Aug 17, 2015 00:49:51 #
Maybe learning from from books is not your best solution as it it seems there is a lot of confusion even with the basic terms you are using after apparently reading a few things from these books.
Maybe try a different path. Google Adobe.TV Julianne Kost. She has dozens of videos that cover relatively narrow subjects you can go through one at a time. Start with importing before going on to other things. Lightroom does nothing other than what you tell it to do but you must understand how to tell it what you want it to do. I have seen many people throw their hands up in frustration because they either can't or won't go through some basic disciplined training. They swear LR takes their photos and sends them to Pluto or somewhere just as inaccessible. Once you have the basic skills down then you are in your way managing your files with the powerful cataloging system and post processing LR has to offer.
Maybe try a different path. Google Adobe.TV Julianne Kost. She has dozens of videos that cover relatively narrow subjects you can go through one at a time. Start with importing before going on to other things. Lightroom does nothing other than what you tell it to do but you must understand how to tell it what you want it to do. I have seen many people throw their hands up in frustration because they either can't or won't go through some basic disciplined training. They swear LR takes their photos and sends them to Pluto or somewhere just as inaccessible. Once you have the basic skills down then you are in your way managing your files with the powerful cataloging system and post processing LR has to offer.
Aug 17, 2015 02:33:16 #
Thanks for your reply. Somehow you sidestepped the question completely. I was hoping for someone who understood Lightroom so well they could see my problem and enlighten me. Basically your answer is go watch a video. I get even less from videos, you have to watch it for 15 minutes and maybe it doesn't address the question. You can't just hop in the middle or ask it anything either. I very rarely get anything from a video. I figure if you ask a human being a question you might get an answer instead of rummaging around book, videos, and searches that lead in circles: answer is here!: then a long list of more sites to try. One problem seems to be that lightroom sort of has its own vocabulary, which defines terms within its own system. I need a knowledgable person to translate into terms outside (like a rosetta stone) that system before I can grasp it.
gmcase wrote:
Maybe learning from from books is not your best so... (show quote)
Aug 17, 2015 02:47:51 #
Ok I listened to Julianne Kost for 5 minutes on "importing", basically the same as an audio book, no help information wise, maybe if I listen 10 more minutes she will address my question, maybe not. I am getting the idea that lightroom works with "virtual" files, in that they do not alter the original file for instance while in post producton...or something like that, which is why the "catalogue" is not the same as the file folder with your original negatives...which is why someone may erase the originals thinking these virtual files were complete and then lose their pictures, which is what I read at one point has happened to some unlucky photographers who did not understand this. I think this is a crucial point or basic "axiom" that Lightroom is built on, and that you must understand this first before you start doing things with it. I just don't understand it yet, thats all.
gmcase wrote:
Maybe learning from from books is not your best so... (show quote)
Aug 17, 2015 02:49:38 #
May I suggest that you use UHH's Private Message ("PM") feature listed in the banner at the top of this page. Use PM to contact "Searcher" a UHH member in Kent, England, UK. Searcher is a very patient Lightroom guru who has been around UHH (being respectful) quite a while. He is a very decent individual who is quite adept at explaining Lightroom.
You are doing the right thing by raising this question early in your relationship with LR. Getting off on the right foot will save you hours of anguish later. /Ralph
You are doing the right thing by raising this question early in your relationship with LR. Getting off on the right foot will save you hours of anguish later. /Ralph
Aug 17, 2015 02:53:18 #
Thanks, I will try to do that. It is a good idea...could be the answer...my private messaging has 14 messages on it though, as does my cell phone, not too mention voice mail and my answering machine which has a bunch I am about to erase because it is full..... I just can't keep on top of them all. Face book has changed now and I am getting flooded, thinking of turning it off. (did I mention my email adresses each of which gets tons of messages every day)
rjaywallace wrote:
May I suggest that you use UHH's Private Message (... (show quote)
Aug 17, 2015 05:35:12 #
Lightroom is mechanically very simple to use, but it can be very confusing to use if you are a new user and more accustomed to the "Open a file - Edit the file - Save the File" kind of program.
First concept to understand and probably the most important is that LR does NOT IMPORT your files at all.
The easiest way to describe what is going on is to follow a raw file from the camera through the process.
I am not going to bog this post down with loads of technical stuff, so if I over-simplify things please forgive me.
This morning I photographed a snap of my garden in Nikon Nef, popped the card into a reader and LR opened automatically in the Import Module.
A raw file is actually a container, inside the container is a load of information - all the data which when interpreted is formed into an image, all the information which Nikon allows as NOTES, such as the white balance setting on the camera, the lens and camera used, the capture date and a host of other information collectively known as Exif data.
Also tucked into the Nef container are up to three copies of the image in jpeg form. (Large, Medium and Small.)
One of those jpeg images is copied by LR and displayed onto the Import Screen. You can't see the raw file because it isn't an image file and can't be displayed directly.
When the Import button is clicked, the Nef file is copied to the destination folder which I have set in the Import Module, (the original file remains on the camera card), a catalogue entry is created which copies all the Exif data into a database, a preview is created (a modified jpeg), an xmp file is created which lives in the destination folder next to the original Nef file and the Import screen is closed.
The image now shows up in the Library. This image is the newly created preview jpg - it can be enlarged or reduced and even a limited amount of work can be done to the Library copy.
Any serious editing is achieved in the Develop Module.
My early morning snap is underexposed, so in the Develop Module I increase the exposure.
As soon as I finished with that exposure slider, the History panel is updated, the database is updated with the edit, the xmp file is updated and the jpeg image on the screen is updated with the edit.
If at this point I closed LR and viewed the original image, I would see that the exposure is not changed, the original is still as it was.
Original Raw files are not changed by editing.
To get an image out of LR which is fully edited, the image has to be exported.
In the Export dialogue, the destination, file type, resolution and size are set up by the user, the file is exported. All the edits are applied to the exported image.
On your hard drive you will now have the original (unaltered) raw file, an xmp file and the newly created image with the correct exposure.
I hope this post goes a little way to making LR understandable and more fun to use.
First concept to understand and probably the most important is that LR does NOT IMPORT your files at all.
The easiest way to describe what is going on is to follow a raw file from the camera through the process.
I am not going to bog this post down with loads of technical stuff, so if I over-simplify things please forgive me.
This morning I photographed a snap of my garden in Nikon Nef, popped the card into a reader and LR opened automatically in the Import Module.
A raw file is actually a container, inside the container is a load of information - all the data which when interpreted is formed into an image, all the information which Nikon allows as NOTES, such as the white balance setting on the camera, the lens and camera used, the capture date and a host of other information collectively known as Exif data.
Also tucked into the Nef container are up to three copies of the image in jpeg form. (Large, Medium and Small.)
One of those jpeg images is copied by LR and displayed onto the Import Screen. You can't see the raw file because it isn't an image file and can't be displayed directly.
When the Import button is clicked, the Nef file is copied to the destination folder which I have set in the Import Module, (the original file remains on the camera card), a catalogue entry is created which copies all the Exif data into a database, a preview is created (a modified jpeg), an xmp file is created which lives in the destination folder next to the original Nef file and the Import screen is closed.
The image now shows up in the Library. This image is the newly created preview jpg - it can be enlarged or reduced and even a limited amount of work can be done to the Library copy.
Any serious editing is achieved in the Develop Module.
My early morning snap is underexposed, so in the Develop Module I increase the exposure.
As soon as I finished with that exposure slider, the History panel is updated, the database is updated with the edit, the xmp file is updated and the jpeg image on the screen is updated with the edit.
If at this point I closed LR and viewed the original image, I would see that the exposure is not changed, the original is still as it was.
Original Raw files are not changed by editing.
To get an image out of LR which is fully edited, the image has to be exported.
In the Export dialogue, the destination, file type, resolution and size are set up by the user, the file is exported. All the edits are applied to the exported image.
On your hard drive you will now have the original (unaltered) raw file, an xmp file and the newly created image with the correct exposure.
I hope this post goes a little way to making LR understandable and more fun to use.
Aug 17, 2015 06:23:58 #
The second part of your post relates to different file types.
If you delete the raw file from the hard drive, LR will not be able to reference the data in the raw file and thus you will not be able to edit or export any images from that raw file.
Whilst LR does not really import the raw files, it does need to reference the file every time you want to work on it.
If as I suspect your camera produces large raw files, (D810 or similar?) then it will be beneficial to use either an external drive or a second internal drive for your images.
The files used and stored in LR are a form of modified jpegs and have no recognisable suffix. It does not matter because these files are for display within LR only, not for exporting etc.
It is the interaction between the database and the Adobe image file on the screen which shows you what the finished image will look like when printed or exported. Nothing more.
Examine the Import Module, you can use this to copy images (the originals) to different places on the hard drive or even a different hard drive), there is no mention of file type changing (except for converting to DNG).
The subject of converting (or import as) DNG files keeps coming up, and I am increasingly forming the opinion that this is a personal preference rather having a really good reason. I suppose there may be an advantage with your files that the DNG files are a little smaller without loss of quality.
If you delete the raw file from the hard drive, LR will not be able to reference the data in the raw file and thus you will not be able to edit or export any images from that raw file.
Whilst LR does not really import the raw files, it does need to reference the file every time you want to work on it.
If as I suspect your camera produces large raw files, (D810 or similar?) then it will be beneficial to use either an external drive or a second internal drive for your images.
The files used and stored in LR are a form of modified jpegs and have no recognisable suffix. It does not matter because these files are for display within LR only, not for exporting etc.
It is the interaction between the database and the Adobe image file on the screen which shows you what the finished image will look like when printed or exported. Nothing more.
Examine the Import Module, you can use this to copy images (the originals) to different places on the hard drive or even a different hard drive), there is no mention of file type changing (except for converting to DNG).
The subject of converting (or import as) DNG files keeps coming up, and I am increasingly forming the opinion that this is a personal preference rather having a really good reason. I suppose there may be an advantage with your files that the DNG files are a little smaller without loss of quality.
Aug 17, 2015 09:34:05 #
georgevedwards wrote:
Thanks for your reply. Somehow you sidestepped the... (show quote)
I am confident if you take a disciplined approach and methodically go step by step from importing forward through the work flow you will get up and running much faster. As a total newbie to LR 3, I took the plunge and spent about 6 dedicated hours watching the Kost videos, other Youtube videos and a couple written how to's over a weekend. I then went on to learn more advanced techniques as time permitted but the key is to go step by step and don't bounce around searching for something you think is the answer but isn't regardless of which type of learning resources you are using.
Aug 18, 2015 06:44:34 #
georgevedwards wrote:
Ok I have 2 big thick different books on Lightroom... (show quote)
Try Anthony Morganti on importing.
http://www.anthonymorganti.com
and here is a more complete and easier way to see many of his tutorials. Note: these are just his quicktips but he has several complete list of full and quick with examples.
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLllFqBuTM0WKbLVgOzP0Rz_QlFMRe7Fax
This is the full group (I think lol)
http://www.youtube.com/user/AnthonyMorganti/featured
Aug 18, 2015 07:28:31 #
Aug 18, 2015 07:43:30 #
George,
This sort of confusion about the image management side of lightroom seems to come up constantly.
I've tried to clear this up for people via this blog as well as in person and....Both parties get even more frustrated.
I've been using Lightroom for several years and I have never had anything mysterious happen to any of my image files......ever.
I am tempted to write a long winded explanation of Lightroom's import and catalog functions but experience tells me......it aint gonna work.
The understatement of the year might be "there are a lot of books and free tutorials about Lightroom available"
I STRONGLY recommend Scott Kelby's book "The Adobe Photoshop Lightroom "X" Book for Digital Photographers"
(his humor aside)
I STRONGLY recommend you do a mind flush....get all of what you think you know about this already out of your head, make no assumptions and follow Kelby's first few chapters.....faithfully. (don't skim it and jump back into LR)
Once you are started and see how things work it's easy enough to make changes within lightroom to arrange things in any manner you like.
BTW
I think you are making this much more difficult than it needs to be. All of the questions you are asking will go away once you understand a few basic things. Kelly's book will get you there and then specific questions are easy for most LR users to answer.
This sort of confusion about the image management side of lightroom seems to come up constantly.
I've tried to clear this up for people via this blog as well as in person and....Both parties get even more frustrated.
I've been using Lightroom for several years and I have never had anything mysterious happen to any of my image files......ever.
I am tempted to write a long winded explanation of Lightroom's import and catalog functions but experience tells me......it aint gonna work.
The understatement of the year might be "there are a lot of books and free tutorials about Lightroom available"
I STRONGLY recommend Scott Kelby's book "The Adobe Photoshop Lightroom "X" Book for Digital Photographers"
(his humor aside)
I STRONGLY recommend you do a mind flush....get all of what you think you know about this already out of your head, make no assumptions and follow Kelby's first few chapters.....faithfully. (don't skim it and jump back into LR)
Once you are started and see how things work it's easy enough to make changes within lightroom to arrange things in any manner you like.
BTW
I think you are making this much more difficult than it needs to be. All of the questions you are asking will go away once you understand a few basic things. Kelly's book will get you there and then specific questions are easy for most LR users to answer.
Aug 18, 2015 07:56:42 #
zigipha
Loc: north nj
[quote=georgevedwards]Ok I have 2 big thick different books on Lightroom. I really want to understand this first stumbling block or I can't get on. Sources say that lightroom doesn't use the master file in cataloging...says some photographers deleted master files after importing to lightroom and lost all their originals.[[/quote]
if by master file you mean the one on the memory card, it depends on how paranoid you want to be. Do you have other backups of your images on a regular basis? maybe only delete the memory card versions after you have created 2 or more copies on your hard drive (the working copy and the backup copy).
if master files means the one on your hard disk (the ones you edit via lightroom), then you should never delete them unless you really don't want the pic anymore
Depends on how many pics you plan on having. if you are going to have 100G of picture, then its a waste of c: drive disk space to keep them on there (forces larger main disks, limits use of sdd if budget limited and causes longer bare metal image creations/restores in case of catastrophe].
Just to save you the extra step of where to save the pics - external hd or my pictures
Previews are created and stored in the catalog (I believe) and used in library module and develop module (the strip along the bottom).. you cant see them separately.
The files you imported and are working on are viewable via windows explorere and are in the folder indicated by LR (also probably the one you imported into unless you moved the pics after import).
again with the master files..
There are no files that represent the abbreviated versions
It took me a while to ramp up on light room; its two totally different functions, the library module and the develop modules. There are some things you can do in either one, but you are better off for now to assume they are two different programs and each has it own features.
To supplement what SS wrote
1. decide where you want to have the bulk of the files stored; my pictures or c:\allmypictures or F(external drive):\photos etc
2. decide on a picture back upstrategy. either a file based backed (using any one of a number of available programs), or, lightroom has its own photo backup thing, but thats only making a copy on import and does not necessarily mimic the directory structure in windows.
3. The original files are stored in the directory you imported into. The original raw data is never altered. LR keeps track of edits in the catalog file or optionally in the "sidecar" xmp file (if you so choose to have one). If you are using dng, then edits are also stored in the .dng file (but this does not change the image in the dng fil).
4. one you are done editing you export, probably as jpg. Put them wherever you want (file wise or photo service wise) to for public viewing and easy access to yourself
Also, just create a test catalog, import 3 photos and try things out. look at the change dates on files to get feel on what is being imported, what new files are created, etc
if by master file you mean the one on the memory card, it depends on how paranoid you want to be. Do you have other backups of your images on a regular basis? maybe only delete the memory card versions after you have created 2 or more copies on your hard drive (the working copy and the backup copy).
if master files means the one on your hard disk (the ones you edit via lightroom), then you should never delete them unless you really don't want the pic anymore
georgevedwards wrote:
On the other hand says use an external hard drive instead of using the default "My Pictures" folder on the computer hard drive as it can quickly exceed 100 gigabytes.
Depends on how many pics you plan on having. if you are going to have 100G of picture, then its a waste of c: drive disk space to keep them on there (forces larger main disks, limits use of sdd if budget limited and causes longer bare metal image creations/restores in case of catastrophe].
georgevedwards wrote:
Also says to change where you download your camera pictures, because when you plug it in for download, Lightroom will send them automatically to "My Pictures".
Just to save you the extra step of where to save the pics - external hd or my pictures
georgevedwards wrote:
So how can I tell what I am dealing with here? Are there "thumbtack" image files being used instead of real master files?\
Previews are created and stored in the catalog (I believe) and used in library module and develop module (the strip along the bottom).. you cant see them separately.
The files you imported and are working on are viewable via windows explorere and are in the folder indicated by LR (also probably the one you imported into unless you moved the pics after import).
again with the master files..
georgevedwards wrote:
Do these abbreviated versions have separate file extensions instead of jpg, nef, cr2, etc?
There are no files that represent the abbreviated versions
It took me a while to ramp up on light room; its two totally different functions, the library module and the develop modules. There are some things you can do in either one, but you are better off for now to assume they are two different programs and each has it own features.
To supplement what SS wrote
1. decide where you want to have the bulk of the files stored; my pictures or c:\allmypictures or F(external drive):\photos etc
2. decide on a picture back upstrategy. either a file based backed (using any one of a number of available programs), or, lightroom has its own photo backup thing, but thats only making a copy on import and does not necessarily mimic the directory structure in windows.
3. The original files are stored in the directory you imported into. The original raw data is never altered. LR keeps track of edits in the catalog file or optionally in the "sidecar" xmp file (if you so choose to have one). If you are using dng, then edits are also stored in the .dng file (but this does not change the image in the dng fil).
4. one you are done editing you export, probably as jpg. Put them wherever you want (file wise or photo service wise) to for public viewing and easy access to yourself
Also, just create a test catalog, import 3 photos and try things out. look at the change dates on files to get feel on what is being imported, what new files are created, etc
Aug 18, 2015 08:46:41 #
georgevedwards wrote:
Ok I have 2 big thick different books on Lightroom... (show quote)
I saw this analogy the other day, and thought it was rather appropriate as it pertains to Lightroom. In a library (a real one), there are small file cabinets holding cards and each card has information about each book in that library, including the physical location of the book. Using the card, one can locate the book to read.
Lightroom is that small file cabinet. It tells you a lot about each photo, including where it is located, and relevant information about the photo.
I recognize the simplicity of this analogy, but it's factual.
Aug 18, 2015 10:11:26 #
georgevedwards wrote:
Ok I have 2 big thick different books on Lightroom... (show quote)
A video here from a guy who knows his stuff. It's at B&H and is over an hour long. My impression is that you may be rather impatient but sometimes the explanations need a little time for the info to sink in. It may have more info than you need at this time but you can always come back later if you want.
This may be a little off your original question as I started looking at the video more closely, but may be helpful as you progress along your path of using Lightroom.
:)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1F5x5Hyerc
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