Bogin Bob Loc: Tampa Bay, Florida

I am new to Lightroom and I have installed the 30 day trial to decide if I want to 'commit' to LR. I generally try to avoid being 'dependent' on one software provider - just in case their fees rocket or the supplier goes belly-up. I understand LR is the program of choice for professionals, but would like members experienced feedback on my 'newbie to LR' questions below. (any feedback welcomed)

1. if there was were a head to head feature comparison between LR and PS/PSE ... what key features does the group feel each one does better than the other. (i.e. PS - layers, LR - Organizing/Catalogs/Collections, etc.)

2. LR markets 'the original image is never modified'. Is that not what is available for PS/PSE and others simply by creating duplicate and only working on that image?

3. A big plus is that LR handles 'batch' photos better than most. It seems to indicate that LR may be a must-have for those that post process 100+ or more images at a time (also using presets as a key feature). Is that really a priority for most members. (however pre-sets seems a nice feature)

4. Organizing my photos is becoming a big issue for me (professionals with 100,000's of photos could be a most popular feature). However, using folders, file naming conventions and tags/keywords via meta data that is 'readable' by many editors, AND having a defined workflow for post processing a user is comfortable with ... does not organization become a mute point?

5. Re: Organizing in LR, is anyone willing to share a post processing model or steps as a starter model for me for a) organizing using tags, catalogs and collections and b) the editing post process flow?

6. Have any members considered Zoner Photo Studio Pro as an option. I hear Zoner is an up and coming alternative to LR - looks similar, great dashboard, BUT nowhere near the availability of self help tutorials on the web fee-based instruction.

7. In reviewing the literature and various sites there is an inferred WARNING ... "do not just import photos immediately into LR - you will have problems". What is the recommended approach to setup folders, and Catalogs so a new user can easily begin using LR?

8. There is much discussion about the number of Catalogs - only one, several based on need, etc. What is the scoop?

9. What steps or precautions would the members suggest in order to prevent an organizational nightmare if they decide to abandon Lightroom and to return to Folders, Tags/Keywords and File Naming as the model

10. What are the top 5-7 edit options a Lightroom 5 user has to open in PS/PSE to complete an image edit (like remove object, etc.)

11. What percent of photo processing do the members do in LR5 and do not require PS/PSE ... I read that Scott Kelby manages to do over 85% of editing in LR ...

Thank you

jerryc41 Loc: Catskill Mts of NY

LR is my go-to program for editing, although I have PS and others available.

1. Try a Google search for the differences, and there are many,including exactly how they handle data from the image. I forget the terms, but there is a difference.

2. When you process an image with LR, you wind up with two things: the image, and directions for LR to process the image when you open it. the image itself is not modified.

4. I don't take advantage of all of LR's organizing abilities, but I should. Keywords are a big advantage.

6. Tutorials and deep background of available help is a big plus for LR.

9. One nightmare can occur if you make changes to a file/folder structure outside of LR. When you do that, it loses track of where the images are, but you can lead it to find them.

The experts here will give you excellent answers. "Searcher" knows all there is to know about LR.

Indi Loc: L. I., NY, Palm Beach Cty when it's cold.

I'm with Jerry on using LR 5 to organize. When I export, I create a new, dated folder in the folder I store all my files. In my case, the main folder is EyeFi-->Dated sub-folder. I keep all my unedited files in the dated sub-folder and the edited ones in a NEW sub-folder.

Also, Jerry is right. Searcher is the acknowledged expert on LR, although I haven't seen any posts from him lately.

GregWCIL Loc: Illinois

You should probably use the search feature here and you will probably find many of your questions answered. You sound like a very organized person, so I bet you go from newbie to power user in Lightroom very fast. Me on the other hand--I jumped right in because I wanted to edit photos and now need to go back and do key-wording.

You might also post your questions in the Post-processing section. This section gets more traffic but there are some real power users who hang out over there.

I've learned much from Kelby's books and vids on LR. (One of my favorite "finds" from him is to hold down the "Alt" key while you work with sliders such as the whites and blacks. It's amazing how much more tonal range you can achieve in a photo by doing that. It's almost a given you would be working on RAW images in LR. Otherwise you've thrown away some of your photo's information.

For the most part, I do photo editing workflow starting at the top of the right-hand window and working down. (Assume that's how they laid it out.) That puts sharpening as one of the last steps where it should be. As soon as I finish editing a photo I export it twice -- one at full resolution and one downsized for the web. I first create two subfolders for each group of photos - one for full resolution and the other is the downsized ones (usuallly at 1500 pixels on the long side of the image.)

I use LR for almost all my editing. It is very easy and intuative, yet very powerful. It has cloning and spot removal tools. No doubt PS has more sophisticated ones, but I prefer to minimize my "photoshop" type editing. I sometimes use other programs for stitching or upsampling a photo for larger prints.

jerryc41 Loc: Catskill Mts of NY

I do the same thing. I feel more secure when all my edited "keepers" are saved and tucked away in their own folders. Ctrl-Shft-E

Dngallagher Loc: Wilmington De.

2. Lightroom is a "parametric" editor where PS/PSE are "Pixel" editors. The difference is that a PIXEL editor CHANGES the pixels within the image, once changed they are changed forever, unless you made a copy first of course. A PARAMETRIC editor adds a parameter to the file that changes the VIEW of the original image. The underlying original image is never changed, only the view that you see, so in Lightroom you can always go back to the original image at any time. This is automatic, no additional files need be created to retain the original image.

Yes, you can create a duplicate to work on, but that is a manual step. You can also always work in layers in PS/PSE so you do not touch the original image, but again, a manual process that you must follow.

4. Organizing is easy in Lightroom, you can organize any way that you want. The power in Lightroom is that it becomes a database for your tagged, color coded, key-worded images, so when you have 100,000 images you can quickly zero in on the one image with a specific keyword or metadata value in the blink of an eye, instead of sifting thru files/folders on the disk.

5. For me, I import my NEF files directly into Lightroom from my SD card. Lightroom puts them in folders based on the year & day captured. On import, Lightroom renames my files from DSC_xxxx to DNG-20150301-09-00-10 (My initials, yearmonthday - hour-minute-second.)

Once the images are on disk in raw format, I go thru the images, deleting any that editing can't help, like out of focus, blurry shots, duplicates,etc.

Once the bad ones have been deleted I convert all to DNG format for editing. I prefer DNG to allow the edits to be written to the files instead of XMP files, and like the possibility of smaller files.

Basic keywording is done on import, detailed keywording is done during editing.

Collections are filled automatically based on keywords/metadata contained in each image, for example, if I do a panoramic shot, the keyword "panoramic shot" places the completed image in the panorama collection automatically.

I use a single catalog, so all my images are contained within one catalog.

I edit 75-80% in Lightroom, going to Photopshop the rest of the time when needed.

I do not move any files outside of Lightroom, instead do any file management within Lightroom so my catalog always knows where my images are.

Once images are complete, I export any JPG or Tiff files from Lightroom, publish files from Lightroom to my Flickr account.

7. I import directly from my SD card into Lightroom - have done so for over a year now, never had any issues. Not sure why the warning.

minniev Loc: MIssissippi

I am a LR user since V2, and will cling to it as long as they make it. However, if someone else invents a better Photoshop, I'm open to change. In response to your questions:
1. LR is the master organizer and if you make full use of it (keywords, presets, collections, ratings, etc) you'll have a really full fledged system for importing, editing 90% of your work, finding it, sending it to other places, printing it, etc. You will need some kind of layering program for removing stray objects, blending layers, masking etc - PS, PSE, On One - something.
2. Of course you can duplicate/save as in most pixel editors - but they don't prevent you from making mistakes. LR does.
3. Presets are helpful for me. I have a basic import preset that emulates the wonderful jpeg processing recipe that my camera would do if I let it (plus some personal tweaks) - but it isn't baked in, it's just sitting on top, ready to be modified. For many images, that is all they need, but I can quickly proceed from there. I make/use other presets as needed.
4. Organization is never a moot point, but we all have different approaches to it. LR happens to fit the approach I was already using (dated folder system) which made it easy for me to get into.
5. I import into pre-prepared folders that live on an external drive. I do not use LR to import from card. I then import into LR with keywords and basic developing preset, cull, and rate. I complete editing and add to collections if needed. I export to external editors (PS, On One, NIK, etc) when/if I wish, and have the results sit back down beside the original in LR. I export jpegs for specific purposes and delete them when I'm done with them. One backup runs automatically, and I keep another copy on detached externals.
6. No, mac here.
7. Your existing folder structure, if you like how it's organized, should serve you well inside of LR. For people who have no folder structure and just have photos randomly anywhere, organizing first is a good plan. Also, if a person wants to move their photos to an external, it's a good time to do that, before importing into LR so you won't have those hassles to face.If I were just running a trial, I wouldn't try to take everything into it, maybe just one folder to see how I liked it.
8. I have about 80,000 images in one catalog. Will add one if/when I run into a slowdown.
9. I haven't abandoned LR so can't be sure, but my dated folder structure is the same as it was before I had LR so I can't imagine it would be a problem to go back to doing things the way I did before.
10. Hosting plugins. Removing or moving objects. Masking. Blending exposures using layers/masks. Complex distortion corrections. Printing if I need more controls than LR has.
11. 80-90%

Most of the problems people have with LR result from trying to move photos that are in LR using the computer system rather than LR. LR doesn't know where they are and people think LR lost them.

Indi Loc: L. I., NY, Palm Beach Cty when it's cold.

:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

Bogin Bob Loc: Tampa Bay, Florida

Thank you all for the fast thoughtful (and helpful) responses. I joined a 'Meetup Group' in the Tampa Bay, Florida area and we are having a Lightroom Meeting March 9th. You may also check out your local areas for Meetup Groups - Photography, they are great gatherings with like interest folks. I suggested we have a similar discussion at the next meeting and the Leader offered his LR thoughts I will share (below). Again, thank you ... I am 'Moving On Up ... to Lightroom. Bob

Legend '>>' My Questions and '...' Response

>> if there was were a head to head feature comparison between LR and PS/PSE ... what 7 features does the group feel each does better than the other.

.. the Lightroom Develop Module is basically Adobe Camera Raw in a pretty interface. the capabilities are the same. PSE is an 8 bit editor and you loose quality when you edit in 8 bit. Photoshop has layers, more advanced text, you can draw objects etc. you can paint, has somewhat better healing tools. That's probably 7. Lightroom is easier to learn and use and has an organizer.

>> LR markets 'the original image is never modified'. Is that not what is available for PS/PSE and others simply by creating duplicate and only working on that image?

.. Duplicates cause problems in organization and you're still modifying the image when you finally flatten the image and create a TIFF or JPEG. TIFF's take up a lot more room, larger files.


>> A big plus is that LR handles 'batch' photos better than most. It seems to indicate that LR may be a must-have for those that post process 100+ images at a time (also using presets as a key feature). Is that really a priority for most members. (however pre-sets seems a nice feature)

... I don't know that it's a priority, but it will take less time if people use the feature.

>> Organizing my photos is becoming a big issue for me (professionals with 100,000's of photos could be a most popular feature). However, using folders, file naming conventions and tags/keywords 'readable' by many editors, AND having a defined workflow for post processing a user is comfortable with ... does not organization become a mute point?

... Folders and files are never as good as a real data base that tracks your photos. Adobe uses IPTC data format which is the standard for the largest stock agencies, papers, organizations etc. I have over 300,000 photos in my LR catalog and can find a specific photo within 30 seconds or less in most cases. I doubt you can do that with a folder structure.

Re: Organizing in LR, can we poll the members and have them share their steps ... so we can walk away with a proposed FCCP Best Practice for 1) organizing and 2) post process flow?

... Most members use a combonation of LR and a folder structure. they are older and struggle with computer concepts and file structure. They are reluctant to give up a folder based system and allow LR to do what it does best. So, they struggle and accept the compromise of using both.

>> Have any members considered Zoner Photo Studio Pro as an option. I hear Zoner is an up and coming alternative - looks similar, great dashboard, BUT nowhere near the availability of self help tutorials on the web fee-based instruction.
Too little support. I worked for Apple and except in rare cases would never recommend Aperture. There are enough alternatives in the market. Capture 1, Adobe, Canon DPP, DxO, and different raw convertors. Most members are wanting hand holding. Adobe and the various companies that offer support material do just that.

>> In reviewing the literature and various sites there is an inferred WARNING ... "do not just import photos immediately into LR - you will have problems". What is the recommended approach to setup folders, and Catalogs so a new user can easily begin using LR?

... There is no best practice, because everyone does it different and for different reason. I basically do not use a file structure. At the top level of my hard drive I have two folders, Jeff & Theresa. My photos go into my folder and my wife's go into her's. This is for her comfort, not mine. LR tracks EXIF data and it's easy to tell whose shot is whose without a separate folder. During the import process LR creates year folders, within year folders month folders and within month folders day folders. I don't ever use those, nor does my wife, but it can avoid file naming issues.

... Since most users already have an existing kluge of folders and files, LR doesn't care and imports the contents and leaves the existing structure. I see no reason to not import photos, right away. The import process is non-destructive and there is nothing to lose, but a little time.

>> There is much discussion about the number of Catalogs - only one, several based on need, etc. What is the scoop?

... None of the experts that I know of recommend more than one catalog. It can be very confusing to the user. There could be exceptions, but with a catalog of well over 300,000 images I don't see a need for two or more catalogs.

>> What steps would the members suggest a first time user implement in order to prevent organization nightmare if they reconsider Lightroom and decide to return to Folders, Tags/Keywords and File Naming as the model

... You don't have to return to anything. You can continue to use your existing files structure and naming etc. It just isn't as fast as a data base.

>> What are the top 5-7 edit options a Lightroom 5 user has to open in PS/PSE to complete an image edit (like remove object, etc.)

... Probably content aware, fill, maybe healing brush, patch healing. Not much. Most users over time learn how to use the adjustment brushes in LR to do almost everything that PS can do in layers etc.

>> What percent of photo processing do the members do in LR5 and do not require PS/PSE ... of all the editing members do with their photos, what percent are typically managed and improved all in LR5 (general question).

... It really depends on their prior experience and how much graphic design work they want to do. A few years back I went from 100% PS to probably 98% LR. There really isn't much need for PS today unless your a graphic artist, do prepress work a doctor etc.

JaiGieEse Loc: Foxworth, MS

One point that you ought to consider.

LR6 is about to be released, with some interesting new features.
If you're planning to subscribe to Adobe's Photographers CC package - which includes LR and PSP CC for &9.99/month, you can go ahead and get the package and when LR6 comes out, you'll automatically get the upgrade for LR.

But if you are planning to by LR in the stand-alone, pay-up-ffront package, you might wanna wait for LR6. Adobe will prolly offer a reduced upgrade price when LR6 comes out, but that still means peling more $$ outta yer wallet.....

JaiGieEse Loc: Foxworth, MS

Coupla other things. You can have as many catalogs as you wish. Depends upon how organized you wish to be. I use several. I've a primary catalog for my old camera, which I no longer use, and a second one for the new camera. The cameras are of different resolutions and I've specific pre-sets for each.

In addition, I use a third catalog for images obtained from others - stock photos, logos, etc., for use in graphics design projects. I don't want somebody else's images mixed in with my own.

As to going beyond LR - to PS, for instance - the new, soon-to-be-released LR6 does even more than LR5, and will allow less use of PS.

Denisedancer Loc: Sydney Australia

I use Lightroom but still have so much to learn.

A photography friend told me that once you put too many photos in one catalogue it all runs slower. Though Minniev with 80,000 says she has no problems.

All the same I decided to create and use different catalogues. I have a separate one for each year's photos, also another one for my old slides that I am gradually scanning onto my computer.

GregWCIL Loc: Illinois

I think you have just severely limited the capabilities of your database. If you want to search all your "eagle" photos for example, won't you have to search each year - one at a time?

minniev Loc: MIssissippi

Agreed. I've read about pros with 100,000 + images. I have talked to people who keep business and personal catalogs separate, understandable, but it would really annoy me to have to back out of one catalog and go to another every time I want to look at photos from a different year. If a person seldom looked at or used photos other than in the current year, it might be less of a problem, but I'm rooting around in the older stuff just about every day for something.

If I were this OP I'd make up a couple of very small dummy catalogs that I could totally delete before going all in on this plan, and test out how it might work for him first.

Denisedancer Loc: Sydney Australia

You are quite right of course, but at the moment it suits me. I am not a professional and don't take that many photos. So far I generally know what year a particular outing took place but I expect that will change as I age further.

As I said, I still have a lot to learn with Lightroom.

What I do really wish is that I knew everything there is to know about importing photos and how to file them BEFORE I ever started importing photos into Lightroom. My 2014 catalogue is a bit of a mess, but my 2015 catalogue is much better organized.



:)