bkyser Loc: Fly over country in Indiana

Yesterday, I wrote a long winded post, full of all kinds of details and stories to back up what I was saying, and evidently I never hit send. :oops:

Going to redo this, but it's now going to be short and sweet. I know, hold your applause. You won't get short and sweet from me very often.

Seems harder and harder to get people to make the time to go over proofs. I can tell you that I sell at least double, usually more, if I do sales face to face, and that's with absolutely zero "sales techniques" I let them buy what they want, and never give any pressure.

Other than online proofing, which I "can" do, I just don't like to for the above reason. Where do you meet with clients do go over proofs? I've tried my house, I've offered to go to their house, I offer to even meet them for coffee and I'll even buy.

What works for you? Seems like the excitement is gone when the wedding is over.

I haven't worked at an actual "studio" for years, but it seems that it would be the same thing. Harder than heck to get them to make the time to come see the proofs.

Suggestions from people actually doing something now?

Suggestions from people who may be on the "other side of the table?"

Thanks
bk

jaysnave Loc: Central Ohio

Hey BK,

I will be watching this thread as I am horrible at the business end. Yes I admit my faults. I have done only 6 weddings over the last 2 years and they have been all word of mouth references. I basically pour myself into getting great images and lots of them. I edit around 400 images, make a slideshow, and give them the disc. (flash drive). Everyone has been extremely pleased, but now that I plan to make this activity profitable I need to pay more attention to the business processes you speak of. Well, plus raise the rate.

fotodon Loc: Oberlin, OH

OK...this is a topic I could go on and on about. But, my eyelids are getting heavy so I will make it short and sweet also.

Digital has spawned major changes in the proofing process. I hate..hate..hate online proofing. But, the brides want something fast so we give them some teasers at web res for their facebook within 1 week.

We moved from printed proof books to digital slide shows. These are very basic with image number captions on a DVD that they can play on their computer or TV. This serves as the couples record shots more than as proofs. This is because we insist that the customer sit for a consultation where they see 100 or so "photographer's favorites" before they are given the DVD. We will often show them a couple of designed album pages as teasers. I should point out at this point that the 400-500 record shots are minimally processed. The 100 favorites will be PP a little more, like cropping or extra touchup with the adjustment brush. Any album pages are fully finished. By the end of the session the bride has a fair understanding of what goes into creating a great album. Her options are...pick all the images she wants from the DVD...Go with the favorites...or have us simply design an album as we see fit.
Usually we will end up with a hybrid of all three.

This session is very important because it is the prime time to upsell the album or possibly a wall hanger or parents albums. If you don't feel that you are a good salesman then take along someone who is.

I have over simplified this whole process but if the discussion continues I will add more detail.

Don

bkyser Loc: Fly over country in Indiana

Good to hear that others still have face to face meetings.

fotodon Loc: Oberlin, OH

Face to face is the only way to get it done properly, both before and after the wedding. Our contract specifies at least one pre wedding and one post wedding consultation at a mutually agreed upon time and place. The only down side of this is all the pizza ingested at these. By down I mean that it all goes straight down to the waist line.

Also, engagement shoots are the best face to face that a photog and B&G can have. This is the first thing that we give away when so inclined. We offer a very low shooting fee to start, payable up front, and refund that as photo credit toward album pages if the wedding is booked.

Don

bkyser Loc: Fly over country in Indiana

So, you aren't meeting many people in their, or your homes any more either? Never thought about Pizza. (mainly because I'm cheap) Starbucks is pretty expensive too, but I can see actually using food to get them to take the time to meet could work. (especially in my party of Indiana, we like to eat here) :thumbup:

WmLeeGriffin Loc: PA

I think I am the worst when it come to a business. it seems like 95% of my work has been personal reference, the rest is because they have seen my work. The money part is what is bad. I give them 400 plus photos, all on a memory card, both high res and low res so they can print or post. When I travel, they pay the trip and lodging. now the bad part . . . a large number of people can't afford a lot so . . . a few hundred works for me. The problem is . . . I have been doing weddings as a "side business" while working. Money was never the idea of doing weddings. Now that I am retired, I'd like to do it as a business, but I don't know how to market myself.

bkyser Loc: Fly over country in Indiana

Honestly, it can be tough, especially if people know you as the "few hundred dollar guy."

In your shoes, if you are serious, I have a few suggestions to help you market yourself. Unfortunately, there is no "magic" way to get your name out there. It takes legwork.
First step, set up a webpage. Not a free one, as people don't tend to go to websites with REALLY long names like what you get on the free sites. It also says "professional" to just have "your studio name.com"

This is where I'm falling down right now, since we moved from Webs.com as a host (easy templates) to Hostgator.com. I'm not a computer guy, and wordpress stuff isn't as easy (for me) as everyone says.

Next get some high quality, kick a$$ business cards, and hand them out like m&m's at fat camp. You never know who knows someone that is getting married. Make some nice pamphlets, and go to bridal shops and tux shops, see if they will add them to their nice folders that they often give out (at least around here) You "can" (I don't like to do specials) put something on the pamphlet that says "save 10% if you rent your tux at "Joe's tux shop" Joe will be more willing to put your pamphlet in play, if they get a little free advertising.

Don't forget to visit florists, and bakeries that do cakes. I went a step further, and even though I don't advertise on Craigslist, I do contact people on there who advertise wedding cake baking. A lot of people don't think to network with them. The more people you network with, the better. I put together little packets for prospective B&G, that gives a list of our contacts, and ask that they tell the people on the list who sent them. We give that list to people, whether they book us or not. I usually tell the people that we partner with what we're doing, and encourage them to do the same with all the people in their "network."

I've done bridal shows, without a whole lot of success, and they are expensive, but the name recognition still helps.

Hope some of these things help you with how to start marketing yourself. I'm no expert, and have been doing this a LONG time, so I'm lucky enough that I have a lot of word of mouth, and even sometimes get to shoot the weddings for children of couples that I've worked for.

Nothing beats word of mouth, but to get out there, you really do have to network.

fotodon Loc: Oberlin, OH

Please don't be offended by what I am about to say. It is meant to help you transition from a weekend warrior to a real professional. (Real professional = providing a quality product but not necessarily full time) You seem to be a good wedding photographer based on your statement that you get referrals. Although, since only 1 in 10 (published survey) brides actually get those shoot and burn pics printed, I could also guess that many of the referrals are based on your pricing. In other words, you have branded yourself as a "cheap" photographer. No matter how good your pics are the "cheap" branding is a tough obstacle to overcome.

My partner (Terri) and I started shooting weddings 40 years ago. She has been full time, her own business, almost as long. I was full time, then part time, subcontracting, and back to full time for 10 years. Now that we are both 65 we are retooling our branding to attract upscale business enabling us to limit shooting to 10-15 weddings a year. This may be close to what you have in mind but you can tailor my advise to suit your needs.

First and foremost, dump the shoot and burn business model. You are hurting yourself and the industry. You should be selling an artistic, archival album with every job. Once you do that you can justify your pricing increase. That pricing should be both comparable and competitive with the local averages.

Secondly, be honest with yourself about what it costs to shoot a wedding and what you are actually making. If you did a shoot and burn wedding for $200 and did a good post processing job you probably had 40 hrs invested. (PPA published stats) That means that you worked for $5/hr. and that doesn't take into consideration your overhead. (wear and tear on your equipment, your vehicle and gas, cost of disc/flash drive, advertising) Sheesh!! But don't give up!!

Thirdly, don't, don't, don't do a wedding without a good contract in place. These protect you and the customer and go a long way in preventing many of the pitfalls that a wedding photographer has to deal with. You don't need a lawyer to draft one but you may want a lawyer to look at whatever you end up with. Just do some online research and/or get copies of what other photogs are using. PM me if you want a copy of mine.

Of course there is much, much more to operating a wedding photography business. The few things above are what I think are very important basics. You can get tons of good advice online including here on UHH in the Wedding Photography section. And feel free to PM me if you wish. I strongly recommend consulting Sal Cincotta at Shutter Network/Magazine. He is a down and dirty, straight shooting guy. He is a super successful wedding photographer but his advice is geared for photogs at all levels and it is mostly free.

I hope this helps more than it hurts. I firmly believe that teaching and learning is good for the industry and what is good for the industry is good for my business.

Don

fotodon Loc: Oberlin, OH

That is great advice from bkyser to WmLee. I have done all these things except looking on Craigslist for less known vendors to network with. I am going to try that even though we are not looking to necessarily increase our amount of business. But, as all successful businesses know, you should never let your business stagnate. You must continually grow it in some form or another.

Beercat Loc: Central Coast of California

The key is to have a constant funnel happening. We often get so busy that we forget to re-load the front end. This creates a roller coaster effect, busy then nothing, busy then nothing. It's a constant process, plant, water, clean the weeds, water some more and finally you get to pick fruit.

bkyser Loc: Fly over country in Indiana

AMEN! And don't forget that not having liability (and hopefully indemnity insurance) is just inviting someone to wipe you out. Both are VERY affordable, and available both locally, or online. Homeowner's insurance won't cover if you are working professionally. Even an umbrella policy isn't good enough if you are charging a fee for service. I know it seems overwhelming, but in my estimation, when setting up the business, this is the order that I think you should get things set up.

1. Federal and State Tax ID's and permits, (whatever your state requires)
2. Insurance Liability (I have $1million/$2million)
3. Insurance Indemnity (people get sued all the time because they feel like their pictures weren't "what they had in mind)
4. Accounting program, and an accountant to help you set it up, then an accountant to help you with taxes.
5. back up equipment (rental is a great way to go at first)
6. clients and booking weddings.

Numbers 2-5 are why wedding photography is expensive. (among other overhead costs, transportation, advertising, business cards, office supplies, etc.) I'm not bashful at all with sharing all that has to be paid when people ask why it is so expensive.

I do agree whole heartedly wit Don about handing disks or memory cards out. If you want to actually "make ANY money", not get rich, but actually not lose money on each job, you need a business plan, and one part of that plan is to actually get away from the $200 shoot and burn model.

At our price point, we don't include albums, but generally, more times than not, we sell them as add-ons.

Don's business plan and marketing may be a little different, but in the end, we end up at the same place. Our goal is to provide full wedding coverage, cull out the "just OK" images, sell albums and prints. Your mantra should be "shoot for the album" or "shoot for the wall". Every shot should be though out as "will this be one that they will want in their album, or on their wall? If not, then why the heck are you shooting it. The guests with cell phones and point and shoots will be shooting the "grab shots" or snap shots. Your job is to become the artist, capturing their day. When you do your job well, people will actually ask you to sell them more, and you don't have to really do any "selling."

fotodon Loc: Oberlin, OH

OK. I missed a few really big ones. Thanks Bob for setting me straight. I guess I can't use the 65 yrs old as an excuse because I'm sure that Ed Shapiro will chime in here very soon with even more stuff that I forgot.

You see WmLee and Jaysnav, there is a wealth of knowledge at this forum waiting for you to tap in.