bkyser Loc: Fly over country in Indiana

This story starts a long time ago, but continues to be a thorn in my side. I'm telling this tale of woe, to help beginners avoid the mistake I made.

Years ago, probably 15 years ago. I made a deal with a woman, because I felt bad about her financial situation, and gave her a huge discount off her Daughter's wedding package. She then tried to nickel and dime me to death, and was one of the very few "Momzillas" that I've ever had to deal with in over 30 years.

Since then, she's told others about us, and the price breaks we will "give." She has also called asking for discounts for her kids, or friend's kids senior photos, her relatives want "discount weddings," etc. When will it ever stop? I just got a call last week, saying that she (the original Momzilla) is getting married, I told her the price, and she proceeded to rant about how much business she had referred to us, and then cuss me out on the phone. I calmly explained that. 1. We haven't done discounts for years, and she is one of the reasons why, and 2. Even if I were inclined to give discounts, swearing at me is not really the way to get me to change my mind.

Long story short, it feels good sometimes to try to help someone out who may be financially strapped. The problem is, if you open that door, it tends to stay open, and bite you in the butt at every turn.

Stick to your guns. If you get known as the "discount" photographer, it can be almost impossible to get that perception changed.

Jay Pat Loc: Round Rock, Texas, USA

Well said!
Pat

bkyser Loc: Fly over country in Indiana

Thanks Pat,

Probably the worst trap you can fall in if you are new to the "biz" Not just for weddings. I have the same issues with people trying to "wheel and deal" on the sitting fees. I just won't do it any more. When they say "isn't it better to get something, rather than nothing?" I always answer that this is a "second job" for me, and "nothing" cuts into my free time.

I'm sure some of the full time photographers have some better comeback, but I wonder if people consider how much their "free time" is worth?

RmcBUDDY Loc: Morris County, NJ

How about I give you half of all your photos. I will give you some with the heads cut off of people and some with their legs and arms missing. Hey, isn't it better to have some of the photo instead of none of the photo. "What's wrong, you don't like that arrangement". I didn't think you would.

Mobad58

It's sad but so true, if you help someone who is financially "strapped", then the strapped will line up at your door!

Been there and done that!

bkyser Loc: Fly over country in Indiana

:thumbup: Glad people understand that trying to run a business and not give away the farm, isn't being a jerk. I'm just trying to make sure that we don't end up in the same situation as the people we were trying to help...

skidooman Loc: Minnesota

Yep, me too. At least we learn from our mistakes :)

juicesqueezer Loc: Okeechobee, Florida

Sad, but that story can be told over and over again by just plugging in other situations! Anytime you are willing to reduce a fee, it seems in the long run, you are the one taking the real hit!

Beercat Loc: Central Coast of California

I've gone this road ..........

I'll put on my web site a discount but for certain days. Days that I know I might not fill and as they say something is better than not at all.

Typically I give a 10% break for off days, off season or contracts made 6 months or more out ....... you get the point. When I'm asked if I'll discount on a normal day, you know, a Saturday during wedding season I always say no and when they ask further I simply say I'll fill that day with someone at full price, are you going to be the lucky couple?

I have also found, after 40 years of being self-employed, the easiest jobs are then ones that pay full pop with no questions ask. The ones I've given concessions to seem to ask for more and more and more, of course for free.

E.L.. Shapiro Loc: Ottawa, Ontario Canada

Suffice it to say that I never give discounts or “make deals”! My wedding work mostly comes in by referral nowadays and if I garnered a reputation for cutting my own prices I would surely end up in a bad way! It’s a good philosophy for folks who are starting up a wedding photography business to create a price list that is commensurate with their quality and workmanship and stick to it. This price schedule must be part of a comprehensive business plan where all your expenses of doing business are considered and included in your fees. Remember: When you show up at a wedding you are carrying l lots of “baggage” and I don’t only mean your gear although that is a big factor too. Besides photographic equipment supplies, maintenance and repairs; you have to pay rent (or mortgage payments) or utilize a portion of your home, telephone and communications costs, advertising costs, internet usage, website maintenance, bookkeeping and accounting fees and expenses, office supplies and costs, utilities, motor vehicle expenses, insurance, association dues, advertising, ongoing photographic education and lots more. Theses expenses, based on your volume of work, need to be spread out of all the jobs you book per year and apportioned evenly. You will have to sit down, devise a plan and make projections. You many even need the advice of an accountant of business consultant if you are goin in full time and making a sizable investment. I will do a separate article on this board pertaining specifically to creating YOUR business plan. One important rule of thumb is that it ill advised to go by your competitor’s prices and just attempt to cut them. You business plan must accommodate your quality of work, your expenses (business and personal) and your profit margins- not anyone else’s!

Getting back to “deals”: I have seen cases where the potential clients have come to a photographer asking for a deal based on their “difficult financial situations” When the photograph shows up at the wedding he or she discovers that the reception venue is the most opulent one in town, there are 500 invited guests, they hired a big band, the most expensive catering services, were chauffeured to the church and hall in a Rolls Royce and splurged on everything other than the photographer. Well- I don’t look into people’s bank accounts or pocketbooks when the come in to see me and I quote my prices based on their choices of packages and services- I always go according to my fixed rates. I don’t use pressure sales tactics and I don’t expect folks to buy what they don’t need or want. The point I am making here is that some clients are experiencing “difficult financial situations” because they overspent on everything else and the photographer is the last guy or gal in line. The photographer may end up with a well-to-do client who can afford all this other extravagance but considered their photography as a low priority and also end up with a massive job with little compensation for their efforts.

At the end of the day- I do stick to my guns, however, I am not totally mercenary! I have seen folks that are in really in sad circumstances. A modest wedding has been planned and there is illness, job losses and sometimes even tragic situations, however, the wedding must go on. I have done assignments like that totally pro-bono. I will spend some time, produce and present them with a slide show or a small album and carefully store the files if the should want something more elaborate when times are better. At least the will have something to enjoy for the present time and share with their families. I would rater donate my work or take a bit of a loss that give discounts.

As far as the community is concerned; I do volunteer my services for fund-raisers and many charitable organizations. When you earn your living from a community it is important to give back as well. It’s the right thing to do and it does feel good!

For my kids, grandkids and immediate family- it’s all free! What could be a better wedding gift- well maybe a house or a car?

Even if you are just a part-timer or a new startup business, you should put all of this in place so that if or when you expand you part-time business or go in full time you will be prepared. You also need to consider taxation licenses, business permits and all of those legalities, baking arraignments and all of that “not so fun” stuff and paperwork- better sooner that later!

I hope this helps.

Ed

Beercat Loc: Central Coast of California

Ed, nicely stated ......

Beyond any off-day/season discount that I post I won't give any further discounts if asked. I have on occasion done a shoot for free. As you stated I'd rather make a decision to do a wedding for free than to give a discount. Freebies are rare but I have done a few for special circumstances or family. As they say you don't mix business with family.

I also couldn't agree more about giving to the community. I shoot both video and some stills for the local high school sports. I don't charge anything, all freebie stuff and glad to do so.

bkyser Loc: Fly over country in Indiana

Couldn't agree more. I have tried to "be the nice guy" and it not only affects the current job, but it just keeps biting you in the rear end forever.

I don't think most people wanting to get into photography realize that it isn't all profit. I'm glad you explained the other costs involved. I use that a lot when I get the "that's a lot of money for "x" hours work"

My other piece of sage advice is to at least get liability insurance, and make sure that you are all set up to pay taxes. There are Craigslist photographers turning each other in all the time around here, trying to kill the competition. I'm 100% legal, but I've been "reported" several times by these guys. I produce my books, Tax ID, and anything else asked for. No harm, no foul, but I do remember the first time, it felt pretty scary.

E.L.. Shapiro Loc: Ottawa, Ontario Canada

My Goodness! Talk about low level mud fighting! Reporting the other basement operators to the revenuers- geezzzzz! How stupid is that? What an unmitigated waste of time. The only way to rise up and detach one’s self from the bottom feeders is to get as far away form them as fast as one can. If you are worth your salt as a wedding photographer you can’t be doing shenanigans with the gun and run and shoot and burn crowed.

I have been in this business for a lifetime and I never worried about what my “competitors” are doing in the low end of the scale. I just find out what the better photographer are NOT doing in satisfying there existing clients and in attracting new clients, other that low pricing, and then I do it or invent something! I offer better service, better products and most importantly BETTER RESULTS! I hate underhanded businesses tactics and I don’t hate my competitors either. If I beat them to the punch I wanna do it fair and square. I never take the attitude that a competitor “took away a job from me”. I prefer to believe that he or she gained the assignment fairly based on what they had to offer. It’s much healthier that way!

Spending valuable and irreplaceable time being a “government informant” instead of building up one’s own business by means of resourcefulness, creativity, stick-to-itiveness and ongoing efforts to network, find new accounts, advertise and promote is the height of laziness and bad will.

I once ran into a guy at an association meeting who bragged about his reporting all of the “basement operators” to the taxation departments. So… what happened to him? Did he receive a reward? NADA! First he was called in to court as a witness as to how he discovered the information. Now- the Feds ain’t stupid! The check with the suppliers of lab services and equipment and investigated a slew of part and full time photographers who’s purchases and expenditures were disproportionate to their reported business incomes- INCLUDING their informant- him! As a additional bonus; one of the photographers who was indeed legally operating his home based business, initiated a lawsuit against him for third party interference and recovery of lost time and expenses in having his accountant come in and help him prepare for an unnecessary audit! As I alluded to before; the first thing to do when starting a business is get it STREET LEGAL- file all there paperwork- get all the permits and insurances and MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS- literally!

Another lesson to be learned is that it is better to have friendly competitors than enemies in you area! In my professional photographic community we do talk to each other all the time, see each other at meetings and help each other out in emergencies. You can’t buy that kind of insurance.

Ed

bkyser Loc: Fly over country in Indiana

Ed, I just love your philosophy. I've told countless people over the years that you can't make yourself look better, by making other people look bad. Make yourself look better, by actually being better. That raises the bar for you, and everyone else.

Yup, even though, especially this time of year, when I'm trying to make sure that none of my receipts slipped through the cracks, etc. Doing things the right way (street legal) is the only way.

I don't do it for my main profession, I still shoot weddings because I truly love shooting weddings. It is lowlife scum like those that turn in others, that I wish would just go away. I don't care about the run and gunners, they have their place, I guess. Just like I have mine, and the really good ones *(Like you) have your place at the top. :-)

Reinaldokool Loc: San Rafael, CA

I just looked at this thread. Essentially I agree with the sentiments, but let me tell my different tale.

I am an ordained minister, but not employed by a church--I do low cost counseling. A couple came to me asking me to do their wedding. They were young and broke. My fee was was $200 back in those days. Gee they couldn't afford that much. Okay we got down to $50. That's for 4-5 premarital counseling sessions, wedding rehearsal and wedding--about 10 hours.

The day of the wedding, we did the deed. Then the bride's parents whipped out their checkbook and wrote a check to the photographer for $4000 and another to the venue for $2500.

New policy after that. I get 1/4 of whatever you are paying the photographer and the venue combined. I don't do a lot of weddings now because many couples just go to the county justice of the peace. But when I do, I feel justly compensated for my 40 years of experience and my 12 years of college and doctoral studies.