abc1234 Loc: Elk Grove Village, Illinois

Rod, no one is trying to change the laws of physics which really are the laws governing this aspect of photography. When I say "not similar", I mean that the way in which you and I present the information is not similar. That is the big difference. A minor difference is that you start with the ISO and lock in the shutter speed and aperture from there. Pick Any Two lets the novice start anywhere, pick the second independent variable and then see that the third one is now locked in. If you read the text, you will see the suggestion for the user to imagine a vertical line running through the two independent variable. As the novice moves that line one way or another, he or she can see the various properties changing. I do not recall your depiction showing that as clearly.

A number of people have told me how helpful and clear Pick Any Two is and that no other tool they have seen is as good. I think that is enough of a testimony that the approach is working for these people.

lighthouse Loc: No Fixed Abode

Ever heard the saying ..... "Don't believe your own press"?

abc1234 Loc: Elk Grove Village, Illinois

That and stronger. You are talking to a skeptic.

lighthouse Loc: No Fixed Abode

In all honesty, how you describe your "pick any two" working, is exactly how many people use the simpler exposure triangle to do exactly the same thing.
Shift one of the parameters 1 F/stop darker, and one of the other two has to shift 1 F/stop lighter for the exposure to be exactly the same.
Shift one 3 stops darker, and you have to shift another 3 stops lighter. You can split this up to make one 1 stop and the other one 2 stops lighter, or you can do it all on one slider.
Shift two of them 1 f/stop darker each and you have to shift the third one 2 stops lighter.
Shift one 1 f/stop darker, another 5 f/stops darker, and the remaining one has to go 6 f/stops lighter for the exposure to remain the same.
All simple stuff.
And all already invented.

You want to take the aperture from f/1.4 to f/8 to get a deeper dof.
And you want to take the shutter speed from 1/250th sec to 1/4 sec to get motion blur in the water.
That is 1.4>2>2.8>4>5.6>8 ..... 5 stops darker on the aperture.
1/250>1/125>1/60>1/30>1/15>1/8>1/4 ...... 6 stops lighter on the shutter speed.
So I need to go 1 stop darker on the ISO to have the same exposure as the original image.


None of them are set in stone. It is a 3 legged stool, not a 2 legged one.

All this is assuming that you wish to keep the exposure the same.
But it can be used very similarly to give you the stops to darken or lighten your image.

abc1234 Loc: Elk Grove Village, Illinois

I am totally baffled by how advocates of the exposure triangle continue to read so much more into it than is there. All it says is that setting two variables defines the third. I have yet to see one in these posts that really does any more than that despite the claims of some. Pick Any Two is not a triangle no matter how hard some want to think it is. It does, however, accomplish what the triangle does not: it isolates clearly how the three variables work together. Perhaps the three-sided advocates are believing their own press. And none has yet shown where the Pick Any Two approach has appeared elsewhere.

lighthouse Loc: No Fixed Abode

My humble apologies.
I was mistaken in thinking that you actually understood the exposure triangle.

E.L.. Shapiro Loc: Ottawa, Ontario Canada

I think that the first step in learning the basics of photography is to, at least to start with, to forget all about automatic features and approach the subject of camera controls from a standpoint of manual operation. When we start out with even the simplest forms of automated systems such as aperture or shutter priority, most beginners many not fully understand the multiple functions or effects of each control besides the exposure factors alone.

For example, the should understand the aperture settings not only control the quantity of light passing through the lens but also the degree of depth of field and also the maximum sharpness performance of the lens which usually kicks in about 2 stops ahead of the maximum aperture.

The shutter also deals with the quantity of light reaching the camera’s sensor but also has very much to do with that action stopping ability of the system as well as issues to do with flash synchronization.

Understanding theses functions allows the photographer to make educated decisions as to which priorities should be selected in manual or automatic camera modes. Without a grasp of theses rudimentary techniques the final results are dependent on what the CAMERA decides to do- rather than what the photographer wants to achieve and the results can be disappointing. Knowing all of this will assist the photographer in determining when it is time to increase or decrease the ISO setting which also has more than one factor besides the light sensitivity, that is, the degree of noise that may be present in the final images.

In the area of flash photography, an important aspect that should be learned is the ratio between the flash output and the available light that is present in any given scenario. In manual operation it is easy enough to expose for the flash and the “drag” to shutter accordingly to create a natural look in the image. In automatic mode it can be touch and go if the camera is making the final decision. Fully understanding the manual technique that is related to this technique will assist the photographer in choosing the correct automatic function.

Understanding the principles of depth of field will helps the photographer select the correct auto-focus point as to where in the scene you want the camera to focus and lock in before getting to the final composition. It is possible to, despite full auto-focus function, to actually end up with a out of focus image or one can see a portrait with nice “bokeh” in the view finder and end up with too much depth of field thereby bringing all kinds of distractions in the background into sharp focus. The camera my decide on the wrong aperture (as to aesthetics) and still get proper exposure Also- not understanding where to gather the exposure data (in the viewfinder) and locking it in can fool even the best of built in metering systems.

No doubt that the exposure triangle is an important component of photographic technique it can not stand completely on its own as a basis for total camera operation.

At the end of the day, when the photographer is going to make an image he or she will decide whether the want or need deep or shallow depth of field, doe the want to freeze or blur action, which flash technique the want to apply and if the need maximum edge to edge lens performance and then select the manual setting or automatic priorities that they need.

Ed

RodL Loc: Down Under

E.L.. Shapiro; I could not agree more with your comments. It’s not a good idea to teach new learners about auto features until they understand the basics. I posted the page “Understanding Exposure & Camera Modes” to show abc123 the similarity of his “pick any two” to the shutter and aperture priority modes. As with these modes you pick the ISO then pick the aperture or shutter speed, depending on what effects you’re trying to achieve. This page is an extract of a more detailed notes and is not a course for newbies.

abc1234 Loc: Elk Grove Village, Illinois

Ed, I respectfully disagree with you. I think the first step is for the novice to take pictures, preferably in auto, so that he or she sees what a great pleasure photography can be. Get the student excited and wanting to learn more not just about the picture taking techniques but also the history, the art, famous photos and photographers, and how to look at a photograph. What can be better in a student than one who says "teach me more"? Then, with a willing, passionate and committed student, you can teach anything in any manner you wish.

Leitz Loc: Solms

You are absolutely right. The surest way to get a student to say "teach me more" is to start them off shooting in auto ... they'll soon be wanting to know how to properly expose a scene with widely varying luminous levels.
As the so-called "exposure triangle" is the very basis of photographic exposure, it can scarcely be considered a "dilemma." With digital imaging, the student will immediately see the results of changing one or more factors and the concept is very simple to convey. I see no point in complicating it. I am not an instructor myself, and this is merely my opinion.

Uuglypher Loc: South Dakota (East River)

No "dilemma" exists.

Shutter duration and aperture, in conjunction with "emulsion sensitivity" or "speed" have been the bases of photographic exposure since the publication of the work of Hurter and Driffield in the 1880s. The first attempt to standardize replicable "zones" of exposure by Davenport, and then the definitive work of Adams and Archer (the Zone System of Exposure) in the 1940s were all based on those three factors, and the early photoelectric light meters produced readings of "light values" or "exposure values" to allow intelligent utilization of the three factors in exposure determination under differing lighting conditions.

I recall hearing first of the "exposure triangle" from my father, a technical and advertizing writer for Eastman Kodak in the late 1940s. I have been hearing about the "triangle", using it, and integrating it in my instruction of photographic exposure from the mid 1960s to the present time.

Here is the "Photographer's Triangle" I use in conjunction with teaching the "Brighter-Stop/ Darker-Stop system of maintaining a Zero-net-change balance in the Bright/ Dark Stop Bank Account using the E.V. of the base exposure to provide the possible exposure combinations maintaining the zero-change "Bank Balance". Students have caught on uniformly more quickly in the recent decades since I've been using this introduction to exposure.

This version of the Triangle is the one I intended to post earlier -Dec 10, 14 11:05:48 - when I mistakenly grabbed an early draft from an earlier file and which I have arranged with Administration to be removed. The present version includes, for greater clarity and mnemonic effect, color coding of shutter effects (green), aperture effects (blue), and ASA/ISO effects (orange). These colors are consistenly used in conjunction with discussion of the three factors throughout my other exposure teaching aids that build upon this basic "Exposure Triangle".

It seems to lend itself well to the "Pick Any Two" approach and encourages transition to MANUAL exposure control as well as understanding the other exposure modes offered by any camera model so that intelligent choices can be made among the available modes. When they are comfortable with MANUAL it's interesting how many of those students become less defensively dogmatic that MANUAL is the ONLY mode to use. In my opinion as one who used "manual" from 1947 until converting to digital at the recent turn-of-century there is not a presently available "exposure mode" that cannot reasonably find a useful place in any photographer's strategic exposure armamentarium.

As this discussion continues into seven...then eight pages and beyond I conclude that any learning aid, be it the venerable triangle that includes the secondary effects of the three essential exposure factors, or RodL's lucid approach emphasizing the multiplicity of equivalent exposures encompassed in a single E.V. ( and the necessity of accomplishing zero net change in configuring equivalent exposures within a single E.V.), and even the "three card" aid of abc123's "pick two" suggestion are all, inescapably, based on the summary information included in any thoughtfully and well designed "Exposure Triangle". That is why the Triangle endures as the most useful, and thereby most commonly used aid for ready comprehension of photographic exposure.

In spite of protestations the triangle ( or square, if one includes filter factors....or pentagon if E.C. is added to the mix) is still an admirably simple and un-complicated means of appreciating the interdependence of the basic exposure factors.

Best regards,
Dave Graham

The "Exposure Triangle"

(Download)

E.L.. Shapiro Loc: Ottawa, Ontario Canada

I do agree that learning the basics of photographic theory can be somewhat tedious for beginning photographers but that depends on the ultimate goals of the new photographer, that is, whether or not he or she wants a quick path to getting instant results or aspires to become a serious amateur or a professional photographer. My experience as a teacher and instructor of photography and a full time professional shooter is in the professional training aspect of the craft, however, I have no prejudice or snobbishness about just teaching folks to enjoy their photography as a fun and satisfying hobby. That’s what I did with my own kids; I set them up with automatic cameras, back in the day, a couple of Minolta X-700 bodies a small pool of lenses and left them to their own devices. They both have artistic talent and can make good pictures but they never wanted to join their mom and dad in the business.

As far as professional caliber training is concerned, here’s my teaching theory: I feel that we all can agree that photography is both an art and a science. A good theoretical grounding in the science is important but it does not have to go the extent of an engineering level of knowledge, however, a sold grounding in the basics is very important. I take this approach because the aesthetics or the artistic aspects of the craft are almost endless and infinite: There is lighting or the usage of natural light, composition, color harmony, tonal mass, artistic manipulation in editing, story telling, viewer impact, presentation and even philosophy. All of this is a never ending learning process.

I do not want to bog students, hobbyists or trainees down with endless formulae, mathematics, physics, optical theory and RULES but I always emphasize the fact that “the rules are the tools” of creativity. Whether a photographer wants to conform to traditional rules or skillfully break them is a matter of artistic talent, resourcefulness, discovery, experimentation, creativity, style, taste, perhaps stick-to-itiveness and individuality. I can not teach theses traits or attributes- I can only hope to encourage and inspire them. I can, however, teach the basics and equip and enable talented people to bring their imaginations and concepts to tangible imagery.

I always believed that a good photograph begins in the photographer’s mind’s eye but there can be a long and hard road between that image and the image appearing on a sheet of photographic paper exactly as the photographer envisioned it. The best vehicle to eliminate all the “road blocks and bumps” is solid technique.

Allot of this goes to teaching methodology and a bit of showmanship. During the film days there was always a waiting period between shootin and appreciating the results on a transparency, negative or print, Nowadays, with digital imagery there is the convenience, fun and pleasure of instant gratification or sometimes a little disappointment. When teaching, I oftentimes tether the camera to a laptop and there are instantaneous and big results. I don’t need to sit down with an individual photographer, a small group or stand up in front of a classroom full of students and dictate a litany of rules and theories. Students become quickly engrossed in the MAGIC of photographic technique. I can explain things like depth of field using charts and calculator dials but once the students see a cluttered background turn into a romantic array of light and shadow or see a flower in the foreground and a tall building in the middle ground and a skyscape in the background all in sharp focus they become inspired and anxious to learn the “nuts and bolts” of those images.

Learning photography is much like learning to play a musical instrument. One has to learn the etudes, the scales and the “boring stuff” in order to play well, develop strength in the hands and fingers and ascertain the essential theory that musicians need to know. Talent, in many students, might be there but it needs to be developed. Any good music teacher will tell you that bad technical habits can be easily formed and bad habits die hard. Luckily, theses musical etudes and exercises can be built into nice little tunes that can inspire kids to practice with a sense of accomplishment and inspiration. I try to apply that in my teaching of photography- I do get folks to get their hands on their cameras from day one but there has to be a lesson in each session. Oh- buy the way- I know this to be true- I had piano lessons as a child. My teacher wanted me to practice patiently and develop my skills but I wanted to become Jerry Lee Lewis, Arthur Rubinstein and Roger Williams all rolled up in one OVERNIGHT! So…during one of my lessons I decided to show off MY rendition of “Great Balls of Fire” and that brought tears to my teacher’s eyes as he explained that that was not music and if continued playing in that manner I might destroy the piano. This of course ended my “musical career” but I can still play a number of keyboard instruments for fun. I am like the Pied Piper- my playing can drive the rats out of your house but the people will leave too.

So…I have no problems in teaching anyone to be the best photographer they can be and perhaps to a level of professionalism or become one hell of a good “appliance operator” with their automatic camera. Just be aware; if you want to maximize you own or your kid’s piano playing talents don’t buy one of those electronic keyboards that allows one to play with one finger and the keyboard furnishes all the chords and rhythms!

Sincerely, Ed

Mudshark Loc: Illinois

ED,
Most Excellent!
:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

E.L.. Shapiro Loc: Ottawa, Ontario Canada

Mudshark- thanks for your kind comment- nice dog in your avatar!

David- I love your version of the triangle because it shows the other functions of each component and it is a great looking graphic as well!

To the whole gang on this tread I just would like to inject this into the conversation: I have been on a few on photo forums over the years and on most of those that I have joined or just observed I oftentimes detected a resentment festering between casual hobbyists, advanced amateurs and professional photographers. Sometimes it was right out there up front in the form of nasty arguments and name calling, however, oftentimes it was just a vibe I pick up where too much hurtful sarcasm, an abundance of snide remarks and/or a degree of snobbishness surfaces during conversations. I am always up for a good clean debate with the proviso that learning, sharing and improvement of one’s craftsmanship and/or artistry result, as they say, at the end of the day. When I see personal attacks, bad manners, snobbishness or lack of common respect and courtesy- I just go away. In some forums the issues surrounding critiques of photography is like dealing with blasting caps and dynamite and when that kind of hostility occurs one of the most valuable tools in learning photography is demolished.

I mention all of this because I am new to this forum and I want folks to understand that if I approach topics with a “professional” viewpoint that presentation is absolutely NOT meant to overkill, speak form a position of high authority, aggravate or G-d forbid, talk down to anyone or any question- that is just not in my DNA! None of what I have to say is carved in stone and is always open to opposing ideas, questioning and good discussion. I may site or make reference to certain rules or disciplines. Problem is, the word “discipline” (I think) is derived for the word “disciple”, a word oftentimes related to religion. It’s when folks hold their methodologies and ways of approaching their photography as a religion or some kind of sect, is where the problems start. So a “my way or the highway” attitudes grow into “hellfire and damnation, fire and brimstone” for anyone who does things differently, has opposing ideas or becomes a transgressor and strays away form the “gospel truth”. I don’t do dat!

I have been known to write disproportionately long posts, especially about technical questions. I just write like I speak and have no time for strict editing- I can type quite fast. In answering technical questions I my go a bit off topic and into related concepts. That’s because when I write theses answers I firstly address the main question but feel that other folks, who may be reading on, may be interested in other aspect of the original question and answer.

I think I am gonna have fun around here and I hope I can be of help. I try to help newer and other photographers of every ilk because I want to give back to a craft and an industry that has provided well for me and my family for a very long time. I had quite a bit of formal schooling and training in photography but the great amateurs, professionals, private teachers and mentors and early employers who helped me, encouraged and helped a rookie kid become a professional photographer are the ones who taught me the ropes and the stuff that is not found in books and classrooms!

So bring it on! Ed







:thumbup:

The Cat

(Download)

E.L.. Shapiro Loc: Ottawa, Ontario Canada

Mistaken duplication!