Photographer Jim Loc: Rio Vista, CA

I posted a question earlier in the week asking what my UHH friends would expect to budget to frame a quality 11x14 matted print. Thanks to those who responded. I want to ask a more direct follow-up that I hope people can help with. This is a bit of informal marketing research I'm doing to try to determine the best price point for this size image, so I am trying to get some insight into my customer's thinking.

At festivals, I sell the matted 11x14 prints for $45. I also offer them framed. ( Framing is with quality materials; high end papers, museum solid acid free matting, simple but attractive frame. ). I'll hold back info on what I have been asking for the framed image until later so as not to influence your responses.

I realize my UHH friends are photographer themselves, and may not usually buy other photographic art, but assume in this case that you are interested in buying the image -

1. What is the maximum price you think is fair and would be willing to pay for the 11x14 framed piece?

2. Would knowing the piece is framed using museum glass make a difference, either in your willingness to buy, or the price you would be willing to pay?

Thanks again in advance to those who respond.

Yooper 2 Loc: Ironwood, MI

The price would depend on the framing materials and the glass since you already know the price of the unframed piece. I use fairly simple frames that enhance the photograph. A good percentage of buyers will have the photo reframed to complement their decor. I have sold 11X14 framed photos for the low $100's (single mat and regular frame glass) to over $400.00 for special orders (museum glass, double mats and high end wood frames). I don't use museum glass for shows. I will order it if the customer asks for it.

Photographer Jim Loc: Rio Vista, CA

Thanks for the insights Yooper. I've sent a PM.

BHC Loc: Strawberry Valley, JF, USA

Unlike many people, I find it more effective to calculate component fees, e.g.,
11 X 14 unmatted picture in N/B #117 frame with 2mm art glass:

Frame ....................25.00
Glass .....................35.00
Print ......................30.20 (11 X 14 = 151 X $0.20/sq inch)
Hardware/Backing ...Included
TOTAL COST............90.20
Markup is then based on quality/artistic value of print and time. If it is buyers print, charge minimum 10% markup; for your print, max 100%. For a standard print, use 50% or 45.10, making total price $135.30. Note that, for a special limited run of numberer & signed prints, you can offer a guaranteed buy-back equal to the markup.

Labdog123

So, you are saying that the price we are talking about here is in addition to the cost your $45 matted print.

If so, then I would follow what Mogul is saying - but we differ.
he is adding the print in again - so from his $90 out of pocket, I would remove the $30 he has in there for the print
which brings it down to $60

And, then it hits a Y in the road: Are you doing this to sell your print? or doing it because you are in the framing biz.

If the former - go minimal on the price to your customer and cover your costs and a little profit. Don't buy any supplies that you don't intend to use in your own hobby/projects - because you aren't in that business.

If the latter - you need more markup (there are costs to inventorying all that stuff - and 'fixing' problems that the customer has).

then I would approach it at two more levels
a markup if you are buying parts (frame/glass/hardware) of at least 50% (because you know you are getting stuck with some of that)
AND
some amount for your time.

(that's my 2 cents as a corporate CPA - my day job)

It always bugs me when someone buys my prints for a few dollars and then pays megadollars to have it framed. Maybe because I am always coming from the viewpoint that people won't put much money into my prints - and then when they will, I am bummed. "Something is wrong with this picture". From my standpoint, I would rather sell $100 prints and then frame them for another $50, than sell $50 prints that someone goes and has framed for another $100. And, for the picky shopper who wants a $200 frame on my $100 print - I can do that too.

Using these 'big number' concepts, I would then compare my prices to my costs. If I am not getting a decent profit, I won't be doing this very long - it truly will be just a hobby.


For Jim - have you sold many (and do you offer) larger prints? like 12x18 or 18 x 24?

Photographer Jim Loc: Rio Vista, CA

Labdog, yes I sell a number of this size, both matted and framed. I am currently priced at $125, but at some shows (like the one I am at right now, where the promoter has been a bit lacks in allowing in buy-and-sell venders) I take a little off. At full price I get a x4 margin. I'm currently wrestling with this price point because I sell a lot of this size. I'm considering cutting back the museum glass for this size, which will up my margin but it may conflict with the way everything else in my booth is under museum glass. I could up the price, but then risk over-pricing the item. Thus my dilemma and why I have asked for UHH member opinions.

I have been selling at shows for three years now. I offer a full catalog in multiple sizes. My most popular size (other than the 11x14) is 22x28 and 20x24. I offer a few images at 24x32 and 30x40 as well.

Labdog123

Jim, you have some outstanding work in your gallery. I can see why you are selling.

Putting my 'biz advisor' cpa hat on, I would guess that $45 for your matted prints (unframed) is a very 'friendly' price - a beautiful print at a friendly price. Within reach of most market goers and fitting into most homes.

I understand your issue with non museum glass - but I wonder if you only used it for your larger prints, you would differentiate them (by price and by quality) as the person who bought the larger print is paying for more - and you are giving them two steps up.

Pricing strategy would say that you put something out there to meet several markets - (chevy, buick, cadillac) where the buyers can all find something they want at a price they can fit into their budget. If someone wants to go to Michaels and get a piece of museum glass (at a really high price) instead of your regular glass, maybe your would give them a few dollar credit for no glass in the frame. Or, they could upgrade in size and price to get the 'pro glass'. You are differentiating the customers - they will self select.

Again, you have some great work and people need to decide which image and size is for them - as well as how it fits into their budget. And, you decide whether you want the volume or profit.

Photographer Jim Loc: Rio Vista, CA

Thanks, Labdog. This is the type of feedback I have been looking for. You are confirming my recent thoughts. Alas, I wish pricing strategy was more ..... obvious! :-)

Labdog123

I have mixed feelings when other people do it to me - sometimes I feel worked.
When I don't notice it is when I think I have choices - and get what I want.
In your traveling store, you can only carry so much. You can't have everything, so you need to figure out what price points you are going to hit. Maybe your web site meets the really high end market - but, if your images hold up to a 30x print, I would make sure that the traffic knows that you can produce them.
i am a believer in really large prints - and yours would fit well on a big wall or over a sofa.

jack schade Loc: La Pine Oregon

I would pay between $250 and $350 depending on the subject matter.
Jack

BHC Loc: Strawberry Valley, JF, USA

Your response made me realize that I should have been more careful in my explanation and that there was a flaw in my system.

First, I should have explained that the costs for the frame, glass and print were intended to be material costs. Those amounts were based on actual costs of the frame and glass and included no markup. The amount for the print was the cost to produce the physical print itself and was not based on the artistic value of the print. Paper, ink, monitoring of the prcess and handling of the most precious part of the product have real world costs. I should probably have included something about a mat, but given the costs between self matting and custom matting (including the amortized cost of matting kits for self matting vary widely.

My second error was in trying to base the artistic value on other products than the finished print. This is probably something only the artist can do on a new work. So the photographer determines that the image is worth something (we can use $75.00 as an example). He then calculates the components, possible adding a factor for time and reaches a set base price for ANY image in a frame that size and type, single matted with art glass, arriving at a prep price of, say, $135.00. He adds the image and prep package and comes up with a total of $210. That way, he has not adjusted the price base on a markup to any of the prep package. Of course, there may be ancillary charges for packing, shipping and insurance, but they are not included on the pricing card in the gallery or portfolio. If the framed picture is a restricted series, exactly identical copies of a run of 50, they should probably be priced identically (at least for a short period of time). If, on the otherhand, the final picture required special processing for just one print (e.g., removal of a blemish or birthmark) an added fee can increase (or decrease) the base cost of the image.

The point is that randomly slapping a price the artist feels good about on a finished product with no regard for the cost of production is bad business. In the case of the aforementioned image, the best the buyer can do is to take delivery of the bare print, rolled with a protective vellum seperator and handed over in a capped tube for anywhere from the cost of the image (printing, packaging, etc. of $0.00 - $10.00) added to the cost of the image.