Peterff Loc: O'er The Hills and Far Away, in Themyscira.

I think that there is an emotional aspect to this kind of decision. Sometimes one wants a brand new "thing" just because it is new and you are the first owner. Sometimes it is how one trusts the quality of one's purchase.

On the other hand if "new" is less important than value and trusted quality, then refurbished can be a good / preferred solution.

I like some things new, but I also have wonderful stuff that I have acquired either new or used from ebay or other sources.

I believe that it becomes a very personal decision, and probably from item to item.

Questions about what, why, how much, who, trust and risk are all considerations....

Both I and my wife were used before we got married, but it turned out to be a very good result!

Good luck

SharpShooter Loc: NorCal

Yes, but let's not confuse a refurb item with something from eBay or CL.
The latter two are merely an envirenoment of trust between a seller and a buyer.
In a refurb, an item can be anything from pre-owned to an open box missing a piece.
In either case, the return policy is that an item be indistinguishable from a brand new item. If it has ANY mark that is distinguishable, the item is NOT accepted for return, and is returned to the original purchaser.
If accepted as a return, in this case a camera, it goes through a full factory electronic check and recalibration of all systems, just as if it had come out of the factory when new.
It is then given the exact same warranty as a new item, and sold at a discount as a refurb, in a box labeled, "refurb".
And the return policy is 15 days(I think), so no item has been owned or used for more than 15 days, and likely much less.
So a refurb may be pre-owned(maybe), but it could hardly be considered used!
Just saying
SS

Gma1023

Thanks for your clarifications!

Peterff Loc: O'er The Hills and Far Away, in Themyscira.

Agreed, that to my mind is adding further detail and qualification to the high level choices outlined.

I don't entirely agree from the emotional perspective, since pre-owned is usually also used, even if gently. I think you are introducing a degree of your subjective preference here, no matter how valid.

So you may be "just saying", but you are still, like all of us, merely a voice in the wind.

Who are we to say what any one of us assigns to the value of new, refurbished, used, or whatever...?

The quality of refurbishment can vary from vendor to vendor very markedly. I don't think there is an "ISO' standard for refurbished. There are defined legal FTC definitions for something that is claimed to be antique, and many so-called antique dealers still debate what the term means "to them."

I do not disagree with the points you are making, they add significant value, but I might still choose a different course for my own reasons.

So, I don't think we disagree, but might choose different outcomes based upon personal preferences.

Thoughts SS? You are a regular voice here, even if some users of other brands sometimes question your intellectual integrity! :) :)

das1997 Loc: Brewerton, NY

For a beginner. Would you suggest going to the 7d.

Peterff Loc: O'er The Hills and Far Away, in Themyscira.

Big splash and rock in the pond! Tsunami warning!

The 7D has been widely regarded as the top of the food chain for Canon APS-C cameras for a long while. It is strongly rumored to have a replacement announced for Photokina in September.

My answer: maybe, but not now!

http://www.canonrumors.com/category/photography/canon-7d-mark-ii/

Read, watch, and learn...

SharpShooter Loc: NorCal

Peter, here is where those values you were asking about come into play. New vs used.
Yes, I would quickly recomend a 7d to anybody, no matter what their ability levers are/were.
BUT, at this stage in its life, I would ONLY buy the 7d used, as at retail, it's just too much money to spend(for me), on a new item about to be replaced.
There is rumor of refurb 7d's pushing $800. That could certainly be OK, as it's about 1/2 of retail(with full factory warranty), especially if a person is going to shoot it for 4 or five years more . Even used they are $600 to $700. And as of now, still a current model. As of a week ago, the factory had not ceased production, according to Canon tech.
So to answer the query, yes, I would recommend a 7d. I would also, with a good deal, personally buy one in a heartbeat as a back-up/second shooter camera. :thumbup:
SS

kruchoski Loc: Albuquerque, NM

I knew it: I'm not the only guy to live with just one lens (even though I have others).

Too often, people will ask what they should buy, without saying what they want to shoot (birds in flight, sports, flowers, portraits, etc.) or where & how they'll be shooting.

Last month I was hiking a remote region of Canyonlands (SE Utah) in 50-mph-wind-driven sands. Last thing I wanted to do was change lens in those conditions. (Nor did I want to sling multiple cameras with various "prime" lenses around my neck.) My Tamron zoom did the job quite admirably.

When I accompanied a large group through the Amazon, I didn't have the time (or inclination) to be changing lenses. Same kind of situation when I guided hikers up a treacherous trail on Cabezon Peak (New Mexico).

Take it for what it's worth: don't obsess about "best" cuz "it depends." Just my opinion.

das1997 Loc: Brewerton, NY

This is an awesome forum. I'm learning more everyday I'm here. Thanks.

Peterff Loc: O'er The Hills and Far Away, in Themyscira.

I do not disagree. The 7D will be a solid choice well into the future. But, each individual has their own preferences, and when we are are sitting on the cusp of a potential significant change as this may be, I'd rather take the "Ent' perspective of not being hasty.

I purchased one of the very first AE-1s to arrive in the UK. One of the first T90s. I work in the tech industry, in where it is going, not where it has been, nor is today, nor even next year.

Mostly when I buy tech, I'm a "Luddite", I let others get the arrows and end up face down in the mud, but this is one product introduction that I intend to watch.

It might be one of those where I would bite the bullet and take the new tech risk. Don't know.

The 7D will be a good investment. It will be interesting to see what happens over the next month or two. Buying now may be a good choice. Maybe not. But, with you, I would not pay full price, and refurb would be a viable option.

If we wish to express our opinions now, we can do so and be measured by history a year or two or from now.

Me, I'm waiting to evaluate the new 100- 400, watch and decide....

On the other hand, there are plenty of people that own a Ferrari and can't drive a lawn tractor competently...

SharpShooter Loc: NorCal

Peter, is THAT a prerequisite?!
Does that mean I gotta be driving my lawn tractor for the rest of my life??!!

What I didn't add to that 7d discussion, was that a new mkll will likely be at least $2000(pure speculation). Again, possibly making a mkl an attractive option. And, what the mkl does well now, is never gonna get worse!! :lol:
SS

Apaflo Loc: Anchorage, Alaska

Don't do it. The 7D has already been eclipsed to such an extent that it should not even be considered.

Here is a chart showing several cameras (you can click on cameras on the list at the right to add or remove models) comparing dynamic range. That basically is how much noise you'll see in images at different ISO's. You want the graph to be higher up on the chart. Note that crop sensors cannot equal full frame sensors, so they have to be looked at separately. All Nikon cameras in recent years are significantly better than a Canon 7D. Most other Canon models are too.

< http://home.comcast.net/~NikonD70/Charts/PDR.htm#EOS%207D,D5100,D7000,D7100,D700,EOS%205D%20Mark%20III,D600 >

Peterff Loc: O'er The Hills and Far Away, in Themyscira.

No, not at all, just that owning one [ a Ferrari ] doesn't mean that you won't just hitch up a lawn mower to the back and just drag it around your yard and do nothing else.

And, I never questioned your skills with lawn tractor, you may already way outclass many Ferrari / Porsche drivers, at least in the Bay Area.

And as for your 7D observations, I don't disagree, I just don't want to preempt an impending market shift, whatever is going to happen. Good to know something is coming though!

:-)

SharpShooter Loc: NorCal

Jeez, no wonder my photography stinks so much.
My old beater of a camera does not produce enough "DYNAMIC RANGE".

Heck, I'll bet ya anything, that if I even just memorize those charts, It'll get better!!

Last time I checked, my shots didn't even have any noise.
Must be a Beatified Miracle!! :lol: :lol:
SS

Apaflo Loc: Anchorage, Alaska

Not understanding facts doesn't make them less important.