davefales Loc: Virginia

Being a determined non-liberal/progressive, I cringe sometimes when some UHH people whose core values run pretty much with mine resort to ad hominem attacks. That is essentially lowering ourselves to playing on the field of THEIR choice.

This article has some interesting points:

http://townhall.com/columnists/kurtschlichter/2014/06/02/dont-argue-with-liberals--it-only-encourages-them-n1845401/page/full

Here's the wrap: " If you're trying to win an Oxford Union debate with a liberal, you’ve missed the point. This isn't about the Marquess of Queensberry’s fussy little rules. This isn't about some sort of extended-pinky exchange of ideas over a fine glass of port. This is about fighting for our way of life and our fundamental rights against the intellectual heirs of Stalin, Mao and Hitler.

Attack. This is about winning. First prize is freedom. Second prize is tyranny. "

pecohen Loc: Central Maine

Conservatives have such a different world view from the rest of us that we have difficulty making sense of each-other. I've been trying to make sense of the conservative point of view for years and I'm not much closer now than when I started. But your link about sums it up: To quote from the article you linked to, "conservatism is an ideology" and that is a quote from a conservative.

But from that observation it concludes the reverse of what I have observed. My own thinking is that reason plays at best a minor role in any ideology. It is true that non-conservatives (what conservatives call liberals) do too often depart from logical reasoning, my own observation is that it is conservatives who can't ever seem to focus on a logical argument and who quickly resort to angry shouting, personal attacks and making confusing non sequitur changes of subject.

But no doubt where you are sitting makes a big difference in what you see.

jerryc41 Loc: Catskill Mts of NY

I hate to say it, but there is no winning. No one is going to make a conservative a liberal or vice versa. As you said, name-calling is the worst approach. However, logic doesn't work, either. Political opinions are generally inherited from family, friends, and coworkers. Logic and facts have nothing to do with political opinions. It's the glass being half full or half empty thing. We all interpret the facts the way we want. Attacking and arguing just creates hard feelings.

Kraken Loc: Barry's Bay

[quote=pecohen]Conservatives have such a different world view from the rest of us that we have difficulty making sense of each-other. I've been trying to make sense of the conservative point of view for years and I'm not much closer now than when I started.

Conservatives are from Venus and Liberals are from Mars. :lol: :lol:

Fractured_Lens

The problem most of us have... and it showed up just yesterday in a "discussion" over the problems with the VA (government run socialized medicine)... is that when you state "facts", in a rational, logical, calm, provable way... liberals can only argue back with things like, "who told you that crap", or "where did you hear that, but what about", or "you're full of crap"... they instantaneously resort to name calling, evasion, or instead of answering your comment, they go off on a totally new tangent and try to attack something else. When discussing the VA situation and vets being "left to die" some moronic liberal jumped in and said his mother got the best medical treatment right up until her death. He didn't even consider that anything less, even if the government itself claimed it was true, could really be true... it must be a conservative witch hunt. One even jumped in and said,"What about Sara Palin and all her Lies." Liberals don't deal with reality, they deal with ... hell, I don't even know what they deal with... Pelosi said she wanted to wait until all the facts were in before she made any further comment... meaning, stall, evade, hide until it goes away... while she's really thinking this is another conservative attempt to ruin this country... while she does her best to subvert it... if you look at most of her statements, replies, or rebutales to any topic, and considering her education and relative intelligence, how stupid she really is... how do you expect to have a discussion with your average liberal that believes everything they hear from the left and nothing they hear from the right or even from independent sources withe written proof?

bigwolf40 Loc: Effort, Pa.

You are one that sounds exactly like your own statement....Rich

Fractured_Lens

see.. that's exactly what I mean... you can't answer anything with any kind of rebuttal... you totally missed the point in an effort to throw anything back in my direction... you don't even care about veterans dying... you'd rather talk crap.

Fractured_Lens

Right now... both sides of "our" Government are playing us like idiots. They are out for themselves and their way of life, not ours. If you don't believe that, you aren't reading the headlines or listening to who's doing what or who's not doing what. You've got the President ready to tax out of business half our electrical suppliers... I'm not arguing that "global warming" doesn't exist. I would argue as to how much is Mother Earth vs. man made and I would argue we can't stop it... but until everyone's electricity, natural gas, and oil prices double or triple it's all fine and good to fall in love with the green energy ideology which can't replace our current or future energy needs... but only supplement them. We still need coal, or nuclear to make up the bulk.

hazmatbiochem Loc: Riverside, CA

I was raised very conservative, and exsposed conservative ideals, and the Party was never wrong. Then college opened life's door, and I began to perceive the workd differently, swung over to being very liberal. Now after years of life's lessons and diverse experiences I'm an Independent. Both liberal and conservative philosophies have some good beneficial ideals, but both are mostly poor non productive platforms with interests too narrow to benefit society as a whole. For me it's become an analysis of each individual argument as both parties spew manure pretty thick. I take the good from each and trash the rest. Should one believe either party has an elevated value over the other and not capable of wading through mire, then perhaps they're better off in whichever camp of their choosing remaining blind to their own failures while pointing accusing fingers at others. It's a fundamental aspect of American society...have at it. :-)

davefales Loc: Virginia

[quote=Kraken]

Kraken - did you get those crossed? I would think that liberal progressives who support feminist causes (free birth control?... cmon.) would be the ones from Venus. Or did you read a different book?

davefales Loc: Virginia

While I agree with most of your sentiments, I wish we could ban the use of the words of moron and idiot from our arsenal.

Our positions are well-substantiated so we don't need to stoop to their game.

bigwolf40 Loc: Effort, Pa.

Talking to you is talking to crap since you are the one using the foul language that you say everyone else is using....Rich

pecohen Loc: Central Maine

The problem is that just because someone told you something and you believe it does not make it a fact; it doesn't even make it something that is generally believed. Our inability to agree on the facts has probably always been a problem but it has become a much more serious problem with the advent of cable news because we are not now all watching one of three network news programs to form our opinions of what are the "facts".

Conservatives tend to take whatever they hear on FOX News or on the Rush Limbaugh as gospel and non-conservatives generally discount entirely anything from that source. On the other hand, non-conservatives tend to put a lot of faith in whatever the consensus of scientists seems to be while conservatives generally discount such information. It is a pretty fundamental problem when we can't agree on what the facts are. But it is also a problem when shouting becomes a substitute for reason.

chrisscholbe Loc: Kansas City, MO

I couldn't agree more.

Each of us interpret facts differently based on our background and up bringing, to name only 2 factors.

That doesn't make anyone right and the other wrong.

The glass half full/empty should make that very clear to everyone.

That shouldn't stop us from having civil discussions. The operative word being civil.

NeilL Loc: British-born Canadian

Arguing with a liberal is like running through molasses.