jcox Loc: Northern Missouri

I also want to say I very much appreciate all those with expertise who advise those of us in the learning stage. Where else could you get so much help for so little.

JR1 Loc: Tavistock, Devon, UK

This may bring back some memories

http://www.illustratingshadows.com/IBM1401autocoderGUIsws.pdf

Papa Joe Loc: Midwest U.S.

Hello ALL,
Well, I've read many of the 'agreeing replies' by so many, and naturally, on the basic premise of the topic, I agree somewhat too, but gee whiz, give 'em a break! Some people don't go to 'photo schools', or professional places of learning, and possibly, just possibly are trying to learn more here on this fairly-well informed website, y'think? Sure, some of the questions are 'dumb' (in the eyes of the gurues here), but truth of the matter is, I learned by winging it way back before most of you very well educated and proficient photographers who chide the beginners do your thing..... could hold a camera!
Did I do it 'correctly'? Not according to many here, but I did begin with basic, very limited equipment... not nearly enough, but I learned 'on the job', with understanding couples who understood my limitations and were willing to take a chance on me because they couldn't afford a 'real' photographer. As time went on, I added equipment and knowledge and became more proficient, but it didn't start that way.
My point is simply 'give 'em a break', and consider the fact that they too might be 'beginning' like most of you did one day. It's easy to sit back and sound like such a know-it-all and trample a beginner down... but in my mind that only proves some people really don't 'know it all', because if they did, they would remember 'from whence I come', and be more considerate. Sure, admonish someone when they need it, but gee whiz... oh heck, what's the use?
I say to beginners, or 'fresh, new, learning photographers'... make plain to your clients your limitations, and then charge-in and learn... yes, on the job if you must. Some people can't step out and buy several thousands of dollars of equipment right off the bat, but they are, some of them, equally as good, or possibly better in some respects than the 'high & mighty' few.
Have a great day all. I plan to. I've advised 'carry plenty of backups' to beginners more than once, but sometimes it's just not possible, early in the game. Suggest lenses or equipment you like or recommend, to answer their questions and go about your business! Why not try to make their day instead of knock them down?

BobD Loc: New Bern, NC

Okay, I agree with everything I read on page 1 for this topic, e.g., a name brand camera and good glass do not make a "pro" photographer, etc., but the other side of that coin is this. In today's economy there are a lot of young people getting married who don't have the MONEY to hire a "pro" photographer for their wedding. Out of economic necessity they are forced to make compromises in their wedding plans. So quite often friends and/or relatives with a rep for being a good photographer are drafted to "take our photos for us... please, Uncle Bob!" Sure, these kids would rather have a "pro" photographer, but at what trade-off? No food for the reception, or drinks, or flowers, etc., just so they can pay a "pro" to take the pictures? While I suspect we've all taken lots of photos at weddings, I personally have only agreed to be the "main" wedding photographer once, for my wife's nephew's wedding. And while they were very happy with the results, I haven't done it for anyone else since because it's a LOT of work, both during and after the wedding, and because I don't want to deal with that much pressure. I've also read enough Kelby and other books and articles on the topic to know doing it right is more than I want to take on even though I have a lot of the "right" equipment (umbrellas, reflectors, etc.). However I do not condemn others who agree to shoot a wedding in order to help out a friend or relative (as I reluctantly was drafted to do). Not everyone can AFFORD to hire a "pro" for their wedding, and I don't condemn folks who've been sucked into having to be the photographer for a friend's/relative's wedding. I also see nothing wrong with these "photo enthusiasts" asking for help here from the "pro" photographers on this site. Given their druthers, I'm sure any couple getting married would RATHER have a true "pro" photographer for their wedding... it's just not affordable for many young couples starting out in the marriage game these days. Yes, they'll get what they DON'T pay for... a photo album taken by an "amateur" who's most likely a fairly decent photographer with maybe a "NIKON" or a "CANON!" If the guy/gal wasn't known in the family/friends circle as a good photographer the kids probably wouldn't have chosen to ask that person. Would I ever NOT recommend using a true pro wedding photographer? No. If they can afford it, by all means ALWAYS go for a "pro." But if that's not affordable, then sure... ask whoever they know to be a pretty good amateur with a decent camera and have the newlyweds cross their fingers. If not "pro" level quality, the photos will surely at least be a lot better than the ones taken by guests using those cheesy little throw away cameras often seen sitting on wedding reception tables.... JMHO.

By the way, part of my "research" before my one wedding shoot was to Google and look at the portfolios taken by real pro wedding photographers to get some excellent composition ideas. Also read articles books and articles on wedding photography, and found lists on suggested "mandatory shots" at a wedding,etc. Lots of help is available everywhere on the Internet....

rpavich Loc: West Virginia

You completely missed the point of my original post.

Re-read it.

I wasn't saying:

1.) That questions are dumb and shouldn't be asked.

2.) That we shouldn't help others

3.) That I'm the best photographer that ever lived

4.) That I know better than others

5.) That nobody should try and get better

6.) That we didn't start by knowing nothing and learning from there.



Nobody said any of those things...where did you read them?

rpavich Loc: West Virginia

But none of this has anything to do with the point of my OP...which is that Photography is one of the few places where someone feels like they can "be a pro and now charge money" without doing the necessary groundwork of learning their trade.

I do agree with you...that if someone doesn't have the money to hire a "real" photographer and their choice is "no pictures vs ho hum snap shots" then why not hire uncle bob...?

But that's not what my post was about.

Brucej67 Loc: Cary, NC

Yes it does, thanks. I remember removing the front panel of the 1401 only to find that 3/4 of the box was empty and shoved in the top left corner was the actual computer, it was a big machine that they figured would get future upgrades. After the 1401 I worked on the IBM-360 model 20, 30 and 60. Then a host of MVS computers and finally in 1995 I started working on personal computers and eventually into networked computing. I have IML (initial machine load), IPL (initial primary load) mainframe computers, networked mainframe computers, programmed mainframe and personal computers. Photography was my side line, I went to school for photography and worked on the weekend as an assistant to a photography studio before going out on my own doing weddings, portraits and some minor industrial photography on weekends or after my regular job.

dave sproul Loc: Tucson AZ

.

JR1 Loc: Tavistock, Devon, UK

What is being missed is the cocky attitude of "I have just bought a new camera how do I take weddings, or "even mobile phones are good enough these days"

NO ONE wants to put beginners down , sheesh I was one 40 years ago before forums, none of US had ANYONE to ask we learnt by trial and error, whet we never did was "assume" buying a camera and using it for a year made us a photographer

JR1 Loc: Tavistock, Devon, UK

And to think back in the early days "what was a monitor even less a "MOUSE!!!"

Papa Joe Loc: Midwest U.S.

Hello rpavich,
I wasn't singling only you out, and right, you never said those things. Your message was a handy one to select 'quote and reply' to. No one really came out and said those statements you listed, but the general, overall treatment to the person who asked the question was what my reply was aimed at, not specifically you.
There seems to be a general attitude (for lack of a better word), by some of those who should know better, but don't... that can easily tear a beginner down. Yes, I know several here, like Cptn., jr, maybe even you, I don't know... seem to think 'hit 'em hard! They can take it!" Well, I don't agree. Help 'em hard! What's wrong with that? Not everyone learns by getting tromped on. So, it wasn't only you I made reference to, and you're right... you didn't actually SAY those remarks, and I didn't mean to imply you did. For that, I appologize.

OnDSnap Loc: NE New Jersey

Oooooooooooo, sorry to hear that....happens all to often....references references and Licensed and Insured....

JR1 Loc: Tavistock, Devon, UK

Glad you remembered me in there :lol:

bkyser Loc: Fly over country in Indiana

I think I understand what is going on. Your point is well taken, people get a nice camera, and they think it is easy to call themselves "pro" and take wedding photos, because that's "easy money".

There seems to be a lot of anger on this forum in general these days. There are plenty of photogs like myself, that appreciate people who want to apprentice. That's how I started, so I try to pay it forward.

A couple of people, including OP said they had hired "that guy" (for construction) a few times. Well, todays brides and grooms are doing the same thing. They will learn the hard way as well. I've lost a few jobs to "Craigslist Pro's" that charge a couple hundred bucks. It used to upset me. I can tell you, though. It is the opposite of what you would think. The bargain hunters are the ones that want everything for nothing. If I get that vibe at the first face to face meeting, I actually will pass on the job. I don't need that grief.

I think the real topic here is that people claim to be a pro, but ask very non-pro questions. Most here have no issue helping someone that says they have been asked to do something, but don't know how to do it. That is a far cry from stating that you are a pro wedding photographer, and you aren't sure how to change the battery in your point and shoot.

rpavich Loc: West Virginia

Understood Papa...no problem here.