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Feb 22, 2024 20:47:11   #
SteveR wrote:
I think you're wrong. Alabama law has not consequence in Michigan. Your point makes no sense. NOW, if Alabama had ruled based on the Constitution, that might have been a different matter. They did not.


In civil law, common law is frequently cited as is statutory law from other states. Civil law has far more latitude than criminal. Attorneys cite cases found on sites which compile state laws and settled cases. Not every contingency in civil law is accounted for on a state's statutes. For instance, when an offer of settlement is made by counsel, opposing counsel must present that offer to their client.
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Feb 22, 2024 11:43:45   #
Triple G wrote:
Not my reasoning -- majority of legal analysts' reasoning as I've posted.

If the bank officials & insurance agents (or accounting/auditors) were in on the mis-statements, then it would be a scam and part of the criminal case. Mazars sure dropped trump like a hot potato when all of this came to light. We'll have to wait for 3/25 criminal case for a determination to see if any of these people "knowingly" supported the transactions without having done their standard due diligence. If they are found to have neglected their fiduciary duty, then yes, they should also be charged. But that is secondary to trumps fraud.

Here's the trump org chart. If you were a loan officer and had a request for a transaction from just one entity on this list with accompanying financial statements signed off by the reputable firm Mazars (even with standard disclaimer language about relying on trump statements) and with personal assurance from a trump officer and pressure from your management to make this whale client as happy as possible, would you have the staff & knowledge wherewith-all to make a 100% accurate assessment of risk? Now multiply that by many requests, many banks, many loan applications, many property insurance applications, etc. over a 10 year period.

The grand jury saw enough evidence to bring the suit forward.

https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/24233987/nyag-v-trump-ags-trump-organization-chart.pdf

https://www.cfodive.com/news/ex-controller-stand-trump-attorneys-fraud-trial-accounting/700506/
Not my reasoning -- majority of legal analysts' re... (show quote)


And grand juries indict ham sandwiches. Who runs grand juries????
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Feb 22, 2024 10:18:57   #
Triple G wrote:
You are the one who just doesn't get that victims aren't necessary for trumps actions to be tried as financial record fraud.

Effate commented that trump is the worst fraudster ever because banks and insurers were happy with the transaction at the time of the deals. I'll bet they aren't now when they know they've been duped. Even worst fraudsters are the parents who paid many times more to get their kids into their preferred schools. In addition to paying more, they got fines and jail terms. Manipulating financial markets is fraud and illegal and should be prosecuted to the highest penalty possible.

You are just on the wrong track here. A claim of no victims is not going to get traction in an appeal under the 63-12 law. The only chance of appeal comes from whether that law has been properly applied to trumps misstating financial records and/or that the fine was not proportional to the amount of ill-gotten gains.

12. Whenever any person shall engage in repeated fraudulent or illegal acts or otherwise demonstrate persistent fraud or illegality in the carrying on, conducting or transaction of business, the attorney general may apply, in the name of the people of the state of New York, to the supreme court of the state of New York, on notice of five days, for an order enjoining the continuance of such business activity or of any fraudulent or illegal acts, directing restitution and damages and, in an appropriate case, cancelling any certificate filed under and by virtue of the provisions of section four hundred forty of the former penal law   3 or section one hundred thirty of the general business law, and the court may award the relief applied for or so much thereof as it may deem proper.  The word “fraud” or “fraudulent” as used herein shall include any device, scheme or artifice to defraud and any deception, misrepresentation, concealment, suppression, false pretense, false promise or unconscionable contractual provisions.  The term “persistent fraud” or “illegality” as used herein shall include continuance or carrying on of any fraudulent or illegal act or conduct.  The term “repeated” as used herein shall include repetition of any separate and distinct fraudulent or illegal act, or conduct which affects more than one person.  Notwithstanding any law to the contrary, all monies recovered or obtained under this subdivision by a state agency or state official or employee acting in their official capacity shall be subject to subdivision eleven of section four of the state finance law.

In connection with any such application, the attorney general is authorized to take proof and make a determination of the relevant facts and to issue subpoenas in accordance with the civil practice law and rules.  Such authorization shall not abate or terminate by reason of any action or proceeding brought by the attorney general under this section.


https://codes.findlaw.com/ny/executive-law/exc-sect-63/

https://www.forbes.com/sites/alisondurkee/2023/10/17/trump-keeps-attacking-this-statute-in-ny-fraud-case-heres-why-his-claims-lack-merit/?sh=5e4e267c7ab8
You are the one who just doesn't get that victims ... (show quote)


By your reasoning, or lack thereof, the banks and insurance companies should also be in court for malfeasance. They all have fiduciary responsibilities to their shareholders, and failing to act in their best interests should be a felony by your citation.
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Feb 22, 2024 09:57:20   #
SteveR wrote:
The Alabama judges cited an Alabama law about unborn children that was on point. It was paculiar to Alabama. It shouldn't have everbody in the country twisting things for the purposes of their own agenda.


The principle of stare decisis is used when determining a judge's thought process. It may not be the law in, say, Georgia, but if the Alabama law is logical, and has been upheld before in Alabama courts, then Georgia would be correct if it cites that law. In civil law, this happens all the time. It's one reason why civil law is so complicated.
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Feb 22, 2024 09:51:19   #
Shutterbug1697 wrote:
Yet once the final verdict was issued, the Judge chose NOT to pull the trump business licenses, didn't he?

The victims were the banks which would have charged trump higher interest rates, and the insurance companies which would have charged higher premiums if they'd collectively known trump's true net worth!

https://www.reuters.com/legal/trumps-civil-fraud-verdict-appeal-may-hinge-no-victims-defense-2024-02-16/


You just don't get it! There were no victims!

Banks have the means to conduct their own assessments, and Trump's applications all had the advisory that the lenders should do their own due diligence. Insurance companies retain the right to inspect the property(ies) of their insured, and can use their own property evaluators to determine the risk involved.

The banks and insurance companies also benefited from Trump's name when they sought business from other customers. Trump was seen as a whale by insurers and lenders alike. They also testified to these facts at the trial.
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Feb 21, 2024 20:13:42   #
jcboy3 wrote:
Trump will lose on appeal. But he has no appealable issues in Federal Court.

Trump committed the fraud. The banks are incentivized to accept his fraud if they want to do business. But the fraud was illegal, and Trump is a repeat offender.


Just how was anyone defrauded? While Donald Trump's company provided the values of his assets, the contracts were written with advisories that the lenders do their own due diligence as to asset values. None of the loans were defaulted, and the lenders all wanted him as a repeat customer because of his payment history and his name.

His civil rights based on the 5th and 14th Amendment due process clauses, the prejudicial actions of the judge, and the absolute bias of the DA.

Kevin O'Leary has repeatedly stated that the actions of the persecutors (no, I did not use the wrong word) would cost New York billions of lost investment and tax revenue, and that existing investors were already moving their assets out of New York because they fear they'll get the same abuse as Trump.

See my prior post - Trump has taken up permanent residence in your head.
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Feb 21, 2024 14:33:23   #
Wow! The amount of hate in this thread is amazing! I'm no fan of Trump, but you seem to be missing the point. Whether Trump asked for a jury, or did not, is immaterial. The judge and the prosecutor blatantly disregarded the truth of the case. Donald Trump did not commit a crime.

The banks with which he had worked, all agreed that there was no malfeasance, and they all made money from their dealings with him. The question to be asked, "Where is the victim?". There were no complaints filed by any of the lenders.

The prosecutor ran for office on the mantra of "getting Trump". She's obsessed and unhinged. The hack judge hammed for the camera on numerous occasions and had determined the guilt and fine long before the case was finished.

Trump will post the necessary security/bond, and his appeal will go up the appeals route. Even if his appeal fails at the next levels, he likely has appealable issues in Federal Court such as 5th and 14th Amendment violations, and those will likely take a few years to even be heard.

Get over yourselves. He's lived in your collective heads for 8 years, and you are all going nuts trying to crucify him.
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Feb 21, 2024 09:44:45   #
Texcaster wrote:
Professional shooters, whether they're hotshots or not, are a different class from the ordinary guy with a gun.
You might want to consult a rancher or a farmer about the need for full-auto AK-47s when lambs and calves are thick on the ground and coyotes and hogs are everywhere.


I don't need to consult ranchers or farmers, because I've been on the stock end of AK-47's and M-16's. They operate on the three-shot principle. After the first three shots on auto, you're lucky to keep the rest of the shots on paper. I've shot foxes and coyotes, and my rifle of choice was a quality bolt action rifle, chambered in a 6mm class and scoped with a nice Leupold.

I've hunted feral hogs with handguns, and unless you nail one behind the shoulder, it's liable to go on its merry way unless you get a lung or heart hit; then it goes until it bleeds out. The best round is a .41 or .44 Magnum. A good shot from a .357 Magnum also works.

Ranchers and farmers don't rely on spray and pray to rid themselves of predators. Unless you hunt at night, you'll likely never see a wolf, and then only with night vision devices. Coyotes and foxes can be seen occasionally, but usually at ranges where it takes expert marksmanship, and an expensive rifle and scope to kill them. And it costs a bunch of money to own a Class III weapon.

I've never met a rancher or farmer who'd dare shoot into a mass of animals and ensuring they only hit predators.

You watch too much TV.
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Feb 21, 2024 09:30:54   #
dwmoar wrote:
Some of the first words in the constitution say

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare


Those words are in the preamble, which only summarizes the broad purpose of a document. The actual articles, sections, and amendments are what define the constitution. And so far, no one has defined "general welfare". The term is very nebulous at best, nonsensical at worst. Based on philosophical individualism, there is no "general welfare". What's good for you doesn't mean that's good for me.
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Feb 21, 2024 09:18:53   #
cbabcock wrote:
Money in the stock market is, for the most part, simply parked there. It produces nothing. It doesn't belong to the company, it is the way those with money trade ownership with each other. The company doesn't get that money to invest in new stuff or employees or CEOs. Only when the company sells new stock, or sells treasury shares, or uses earnings or borrows does that company have new money to invest.
When, as you say, an investor actually starts something new, or buys and puts money into an existing venture, that investor is actually pumping money into the economy.
Yet today most of the financial "news" is whether stock prices are up or down, and for every dollar used to buy stock at a higher price, the seller takes his money out. Real financial news would report whether wages are up or down, prices are up or down, production is up or down.
Money in the stock market is, for the most part, s... (show quote)


That's not what I wrote. The initial investment, and subsequent book value of the company, allows it to obtain capital in the open market. The trading of stocks in markets is driven by any number of financial factors, and those stock prices are driven by a company's performance, general market factors, and even political events. Corporate market value is reflected on the company's financial statements. Investments made on stock market trading is not sound financially.

Companies obtain investment capital in any number of ways - They can go to commercial or investment banks, they can float bonds, etc.

It's up to the investor to be educated in a company's financial statements. Stock markets are notoriously emotionally invested.
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Feb 21, 2024 09:08:24   #
Mac wrote:
There is no reason to resort to insults and name calling. All that does is diminish the validity of your point. If your point was really strong enough to stand on its own you wouldn’t need to insult people and call them names.


Didn't call the writer a Marxist. Read what I actually wrote, not what you think I wrote. I merely stated that he wrote like one. Big difference.

Marxists, by definition, relish "class" warfare.
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Feb 20, 2024 23:16:45   #
Texcaster wrote:
It's not hard. Professional shooters are your military, your cops, your security industry, your feral animal eradication/control industry. Primary producers run a business of plant or animal cultivation, fishing or pearling, or tree farming or felling.


I wouldn't necessarily classify any of those as "professional" shooters. There are cops who never have to draw their weapons except for qualifications; I wouldn't trust those to react properly; lots of military never get more proficient than at qualification time, and those quals don't prepare everyone for close-quarter combat; and animal control is in the same boat as cops.

"Primary producers" hardly qualify as needing even single-shot weapons.

Your grasping at straws, and your reach is dreadfully short.
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Feb 20, 2024 21:14:35   #
ArtzDarkroom wrote:
So some were shot. No worries, it not important enough to change anything. If the laws weren't changed after Sandy Hook, they won't be change now. Carry On, buy more guns before they are outlawed. Isn't that what happens after such tragedy?

What about Smart Guns? Ammo restrictions? Alien Intervention?


Smart guns are not "smart". It's been proven that any "smart" design can be caused to fail when critically needed.

"Ammo restrictions"? Just how do you propose to do that? Be specific.

Like the rest of the loony left, you're long on blame, and darned short on real world solutions.

Ammo? - There are reloaders out there whom you'll never catch, and they can produce enough reloaded ammunition to keep themselves and others in stock for years. And don't forget, you can be killed deader than a door nail by someone who's skilled with a muzzleloader. There are folks out there who can put your butt in mortal danger from a flintlock, or percussion cap rifle at ranges of over 1,000 yards. Just ask the descendants of General John Sedgewick. He's quoted as starting to say, "Why, they can't hit an elephant...", when he was struck beneath an eye at a range in excess of 1,000 yards.
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Feb 20, 2024 21:05:36   #
Texcaster wrote:
Legal ownership of semi-auto firearms very difficult for anyone not a professional shooter or primary producer.


And just who, or what, is a "professional shooter"? What are the criteria?

And just who, or what, is a "primary producer"?

Define the terms.
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Feb 20, 2024 14:11:45   #
FrumCA wrote:
That's the big question. In my view, there shouldn't be one. Title IX prohibits sex-based discrimination in any school or any other education program that receives funding from the federal government. Male or female sex is determined by XY or XX chromosomes. Trying to change that is impossible. A boy is a boy and should compete in boy's (men's) sports. A girl is a girl and should compete in girl's (women's) sports. Too many folks are overthinking the issue. One may 'think' they are another gender, but Title IX does not address that. It specifically refers to 'sex'.
That's the big question. In my view, there shouldn... (show quote)


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