For another source on this, read http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304799404579155953286552832
Again, just like with the IRS, it is a shame, and even a little scary, to see our institutions subverted to try to influence elections.
I assume this John Doe law was enacted to go after organized crime. What a shame to see it used for partisan political reasons.
chrisscholbe wrote:
I realize that we all expect, and deserve, total honesty.
However, if you're complaining that Obama 'lied' to promote a worthy cause, I think we have to look at ALL politicians/salesmen's behavior.
If they tell you the whole truth, you probably would never buy the product.
That's why most people don't read the warning labels on the drugs they take. If you read the warnings you would NEVER take the drug.
Having said that, I have very high expectations of MY President.
Yes, he should have laid out the whole truth unambiguously.
The only problem with that is that I don;t think it's actually possible to know, much less, tell EVERY truth 1200% of the time.
I get it that you don't like him and will attempt to tear down everything he attempts to do.
At least he's trying to do something positive for the American people.
Which is more than I can say for the right.
I realize that we all expect, and deserve, total h... (
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My standard for whether somebody lied goes beyond them merely being incorrect about something. For instance, I would NOT say that Obama lied when he said
Quote:
I recently received a letter from a woman named Jessica Sanford in Washington state. And here's what she wrote, I am a single mom, no child support, self-employed. and I haven't had insurance for 15 years because it's too expensive. I was crying the other day when I signed up, so much stress lifted.
It turns out that the Washington State Obamacare exchange had it's own malfunctions and misquoted her subsidy. She isn't getting any and will be continuing to go without health insurance and pay the fine. But Obama simply related the story as he was told.
I have reserved use of the term "lied" for when there is reason to believe the person had to know than what he said is not true.
I understand that we all seem to find reasons to excuse of defend "our politicians" and see the worst in their opponents.
I think it takes whole different level of trust to say "I know I can
not depend on being told the truth by my politician but I know that if he lies, it is for my own good or a noble cause". I find that level of trust incomprehensible.
KW Conch wrote:
That is YOUR definition of socialism, not the dictionary definition. When the government takes over all means of production and confiscates all private property, that will be socialism. Using made up definitions cheapens the real meaning.
Has socialism actually been tried anywhere? The only examples I can think of at the moment are communist countries that fit Venturer's definition.
chrisscholbe wrote:
And just how do you come by the knowledge that this was intentional stragtegy not to clarify.
Seems to me that clarifying would have helped the cause.
Their biggest peoblem was underestimating the lengths the right would go to to obfuscate the whole issue.
Here. http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702303843104579172002892623382
WSJ wrote:
But at times, there was second-guessing. At one point, aides discussed whether Mr. Obama might use more in-depth discussions, such as media interviews, to explain the nuances of the succinct line in his stump speeches, a former aide said. Officials worried, though, that delving into details such as the small number of people who might lose insurance could be confusing and would clutter the president's message.
"You try to talk about health care in broad, intelligible points that cut through, and you inevitably lose some accuracy when you do that," the former official said.
The former official added that in the midst of a hard-fought political debate "if you like your plan, you can probably keep it" isn't a salable point.
But at times, there was second-guessing. At one po... (
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Accuracy was sacrificed to sell it. If they had been up front from the beginning, they wouldn't be caught in lies now. Perhaps you can blame the American people if you insist because it might not have passed or polled as high as it did without deception. Many former supporters of Obamacare expected other people to foot the bill only to find out that they are the "other people".
Now how specifically has the right obfuscated the issue?
FrumCA wrote:
Interesting. Just for laughs I checked out the black panthers piece on both Truthorfiction and Snopes. To no surprise the liberal leaning Snopes reported it as false.
So did Truthorfiction rate it true?
sb wrote:
No one is saying the current plans are "substandard plans from fly-by-night companies". It is just that the cheaper plans don't cover preventive care, have limits on coverage, pre-existing condition exclusions, etc, which will no longer be allowed. So - better coverage, and more cost. The goal is to improve the health of Americans (the US has an embarrassingly low rating internationally in terms of health statistics) and to get coverage for everyone. So - it's also a tax that we will be paying to cover the health care of others who will get subsidized insurance. Those people are now getting unpaid care which is subsidized by us anyway.
No one is saying the current plans are "subst... (
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You may be right about the "fly by night" part. That was a perhaps flawed paraphrase of "bogus insurance companies are being forced out of business".
WNC Ralf wrote:
Ever seen the move "Rainmaker"? The insurance companies that screw customers to make huge profits? Those are the policies that are being cancelled, the bogus insurance companies are being forced out of biusness as the Affordable Care Act requires them to pay claims and spend money on actual patient care and not profits. Hey, but you faux news watchers would not know much about facts. Keep America dumb, vote republican!
But sub-standard was how the administration described these plans and was repeated here by ole sarg among others.
ole sarg wrote:
I guess you like paying exhorbitant rates for substandard insurance.
Quote:
Almost all insurers currently dropping their "substandard" plans are encouraging consumers get better plans on the new marketplace, Mr. Obama said, and anyone "peddling the notion" that people are getting short-shrifted is being "grossly misleading."
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-250_162-57610109/obama-stands-by-promise-that-you-can-keep-your-plan/
But also, you are making assumptions that these plans provide inferior coverage in multiple ways when that is not necessarily true. One of the plans couldn't be canceled as long as the company stayed in the market and the closest equivalent was a Platinum plan. Others had preventive care and lower co-pays and deductibles than the Bronze plans that cost more. Kirsten Powers says that her cancelled plan differed only in the pre-existing condition feature from the Obamacare plan that will cost her nearly twice what her cancelled plan did in premiums.
Kirsten Powers wrote:
My blood pressure goes up every time they say that theyre protecting us from substandard health insurance plans, Powers told Bret Baier. There is nothing to support what theyre saying.
I have talked to about how Im losing my health insurance, she continued. If I want to keep the same health insurance, its going to cost twice as much. Theres nothing substandard about my plan.
All of the things they say that are not in my plan are in my plan, Powers lamented. All of the things they have listed theres no explanation for doubling my premiums other than the fact that its subsidizing other people. They need to be honest about that.
My blood pressure goes up every time they say tha... (
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This problem is that this was marketed as a free lunch when a lot of people, many in the demographics that elected Obama, are finding out that they will be paying more for less to subsidize others.
Twardlow wrote:
Cruz was all over our TV promising to stop Obamacare if we would only send him money.
THE SAME DAY, he admitted to the DC newspapers that there was no way Republicans could stop Obamacare.
That's sterling character for you.
Kinda makes him sound Presidential if you consider Obama a role model.
Frankly, I'm skeptical of Cruz. It could be my ignorance of Texas politics but I couldn't help but think of another politician that came out of nowhere to with relatively little political experience and rode a wave of excitement into the White House and we're seeing how that is turning out.
chrisscholbe wrote:
I don't know of ANYONE who believed that the original implementation of PPACA would be perfect.
Some of these "corrections" have more to do with clarifying the INTENT if the Presidents comments than anything else.
The problem is there was an intentional and debated strategy not to "clarify" from the beginning. Not unheard of from unethical salesmen but clearly deceptive and intentionally so. He meant to say whatever would sell his program and his re-election.
The clarifying the intent of comments made has an extremely short shelf life. Only credible within hours or days. To say something for years after debating whether to say it because it's not true then waiting address it after it has become obvious to everyone that it is not true is not "clarifying", it is covering up a lie. Furthermore, they try to justify the old lies with a new lie trying to say the the cancelled plans are sub-standard. That is even refuted by Democrats.
Kirsten Powers wrote:
My blood pressure goes up every time they say that theyre protecting us from substandard health insurance plans, Powers told Bret Baier. There is nothing to support what theyre saying.
I have talked to about how Im losing my health insurance, she continued. If I want to keep the same health insurance, its going to cost twice as much. Theres nothing substandard about my plan.
All of the things they say that are not in my plan are in my plan, Powers lamented. All of the things they have listed theres no explanation for doubling my premiums other than the fact that its subsidizing other people. They need to be honest about that.
My blood pressure goes up every time they say tha... (
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Comparison of canceled plans with nearly all the Obamacare bells and whistles to the Obamacare exchange plans. Hint: They aren't substandard plans from "fly by night" companies. I would be embarrassed to have repeated that Obama lie around here.
http://csteventucker.wordpress.com/2013/11/02/substandard-plans-mr-president-here-is-proof-that-you-are-lying-once-again/
With digital, why shoot just one aperture for a session? Stepping through a range will allow for learning what works and what the trade-offs are.