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Feb 17, 2021 17:39:29   #
dalematt wrote:
A friend of mine, upon retirement, took up wedding photography. She did 3 weddings and quit because, as she put it, she was "fed up with the bride bitches". That was enough for me to never consider doing weddings.


You can’t do three of anything and draw sweeping conclusions. If you understand statistics you know that is a small sample size.
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Feb 17, 2021 17:38:15   #
Gene51 wrote:
Good customer service is not defined as "mansplaining" even if she is "rewarded handsomely" - whatever that means. Condescension and contempt are not a good look for someone in the service business - and a sure way to piss off customers and prospects.


I think he was being sarcastic.
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Feb 17, 2021 17:37:21   #
cameraf4 wrote:
It is nice to see that we are making progress. In the not-too-distant-past your final comment might have been "Women?"


Well the whole left brained thing has actually been disproven. But there are people who don’t understand art, who think everything has to be symmetrical etc. I run into them occasionally.
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Feb 17, 2021 17:35:25   #
traderjohn wrote:
So to avoid being labeled the dreaded left-brain person one must agree with your beliefs.


I’ve just noticed there are certain types if people who don’t understand art.
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Feb 17, 2021 17:34:15   #
Gene51 wrote:
"The bride didn't like the photos" says it all. That can only happen if you didn't do the work up front to really understand what she wanted, and let her know what to expect from you. When someone hires a photographer for a once in an lifetime (hopefully) event, the shooter has got to get it right no matter what no do-overs, no excuses. Bad lighting? either bring more light or a camera that is good at shooting black cats in unlit coal mines. Wants images where both subjects are in focus - which is not all that unreasonable - you need to be shooting with shorter focal lengths and smaller apertures. Labeling the client as left-brained or anything else - well that is a no-no - you are trying to shift your failure to your client, when in reality you are 90% at fault for not properly qualifying your client, her needs, her desires - and your ability to deliver on that. If you have any concern about anything - like being intimidated by the fact that the husband is an attorney, then you should not have taken the job. E.L.. Shapiro gets it right - he is a working pro with a lifetime of experience - and fully appreciates that shooting pictures is expected, but less important than managing expectations - the hallmark of exceptional customer service. After all, any kid out of college can take wedding pictures - but few have the customer management skills to ensure that it is a wonderful experience. BTW, there is nothing inherently wrong with being a left-brained person - whatever you intended to infer by that.
"The bride didn't like the photos" says ... (show quote)


Just that they typically don’t understand art.

Ok you’re right. Point taken.
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Feb 17, 2021 13:43:45   #
R.G. wrote:
IMO lesson #1 is that bokeh isn't everybody's cup of tea. Lots of photographers and photography forums make much of bokeh but I get the impression that in very general terms Joe and Jane Public have a tendency to prefer straight-forward photography. Plus when you exclude someone or something from the in-focus area you're relegating him/her/it to being part of the background, as opposed to being the main subject.

I would say lesson #2 is, if you're going to get creative, make sure that you have several straight versions to offer as alternatives. Anything to do with personal taste or personal preferences is a bit of a minefield, especially if you don't know those people very well.
IMO lesson #1 is that bokeh isn't everybody's cup ... (show quote)


I did have some without bokeh.
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Feb 17, 2021 12:15:37   #
Gene51 wrote:
No matter what anyone tells you - it's all about the bride. Period. If she ain't happy, ain't nobody gonna be happy. So, give her whatever she wants, and consider getting yourself a camera that does nice images at 12,800 and higher ISO. You'll be glad you did. There is a silver lining to this cloud - you learned that having a fast lens is not the answer to low light conditions, but having a camera that can shoot really high ISO is priceless.

Oh, and if you think that you can impose an aesthetic sense on someone, you are in the wrong business. Ypu give them whatever they want. After all, they are paying for it - and they are not paying for what you want. It's never about being right - it's about the customer always being right.
No matter what anyone tells you - it's all about t... (show quote)


Ouch! Ok. Point taken.
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Feb 16, 2021 20:46:28   #
Bill_de wrote:
All you can do is make sure your clients understand your style before you take the job. If they know ahead of time what to expect it shouldn't be an issue. The worst thing is for a client to be surprised.

---


I know and the groom was a lawyer. I got the sinking feeling in my chest when he called me and told me the bride didn’t like the pictures.
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Feb 16, 2021 20:35:06   #
Thanks for everyone chiming in on my last topic. Sorry I couldn’t answer everyone individually.

I had another challenge recently.

I shot a real quick wedding (due to Covid). There were only a few shots of a quick ceremony.

The bride didn’t like the photos.

You see, the place was not well lit and my camera does not handle noise well so I used an 85 mm 1.4 lens at 1.4 but not for every shot just most of the shots.

I was creative about it showing the groom in focus with the bride out of focus in the background. Also shots like the bride holding out the bouquet with the flowers in focus and her out of focus. The bokeh was very nice. There were several shots with a different lens where everything was much more in focus.

She was upset because the pictures were “blurry and out of focus”. What I suddenly realized was that she was very left-brained so to speak and for her everything had to be in focus or it was a bad picture.

What do you do with people who don’t understand art and things like bokeh. My website shows plenty of shots with bokeh. But I’ve run into people who don’t understand things like soft focus and creative shots showing things like just the back of the dress or just their hands holding or his face cut off showing just his chin with her head leaning on his shoulder out of focus. Stuff like that.

I did not get a chance to sit down with the bride and groom and get a feel for them because he called me at the last minute and there was no time. I had served him before by photographing everyone in his office. He’s a great guy.

He liked the bokeh but she did not. She saw my website so she got a feel for my style.

I was really nervous because he is a lawyer. But he is the nicest guy in the world and he said he understood that it was a difference in artistic interpretation.

I remember another left brained person like that one time I fully decorated my studio and it was beautiful and I asked one of my clients how she liked it and everything was beautiful and she looked around and she said one of the ceiling tiles was out of place and that was her whole impression of everything. That was her comment about how beautiful the studio looked.

Left brained people?
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Feb 16, 2021 20:16:57   #
DirtFarmer wrote:
I always rename the files on import. The camera numbers them sequentially but my renaming system includes the date and time rather than an index number. There is no way that a client would know from the file names that I had left any photos out.

Using the date and time also makes it possible to sort the files chronologically, no matter how many shooters or camera bodies are involved.


So you would have to uncheck the ones you didn’t want to import. Otherwise you would delete some later and then there would be gaps. No?
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Feb 16, 2021 11:32:06   #
lensmaster wrote:
E.L. SHAPIRO....you make some very good points and arguments.
Most of those arguments are exactly why I do Not shoot weddings. An emotional morass that can turn incredibly ugly, for no logical reason, and it seems that the photographer is Always at fault.

And, you are correct in stating the reasons that people should not become or even try to shoot weddings... Personally, I would say that only masochists or people with unlimited patience and are immune to insults should attempt to photograph weddings. I do know a few photographers who actually do photograph weddings and they do beautiful amazing work....but how they are not caged in a psych ward is beyond me.
E.L. SHAPIRO....you make some very good points and... (show quote)


It’s not that bad. I have had very few problems.
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Feb 15, 2021 12:38:18   #
mikee wrote:
As the consumer, if I pay you for 4 hours work, then I expect every photo on the disc over that 4 hours. I paid you to work for me for 4 hours, and I expect all of your work product for that time. If I pay you for 12 hours of post processing and you touch up 80 of those pics, fine. If I want to do something to the others, that should be my prerogative.

Yea but the people at Nat geo know what a good photograph is and would not display bad photos.

If, in advance, you present me with a contract that states otherwise, then I'd just go elsewhere to get the service I'm looking for. As I understand it from talking with Nat. Geo. photographers, when they are paid to go on assignment, the publication got EVERY frame in return. Sounds fair.
As the consumer, if I pay you for 4 hours work, th... (show quote)
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Feb 15, 2021 12:29:52   #
E.L.. Shapiro wrote:
I shot my first "solo" wedding when I was 16-years old. I had been assisting a seasoned professional photographer since I was 14-years old. That first wedding assignment was an "emergency"- one of our staff photographers fell seriously ill just hours before the wedding- I was told to go home, put on a suit and handed the 4x5 camera, a strobe and a case full of holders and sent off in a taxi- I had not yet a driver's license. My assistant (we used multiple flashes) was the darkroom kid- a lower rank than me! I was "big" for my age and the bride was only 19 so we all got along and I shot 150 images- the job was successful.

I recently celebrated my 77th birthday and although most of my work nowadays is commercial, industrial and portraiture, I still shoot weddings. My wife thigs I am crazy but I am like that football, hockey, and baseball players who work well beyond their prime years and still score! I work with a small crew of young folks who will eventually take of that department.

Since that first job, I have shot literally thousands of weddings and events. Over the years I have taken nay courses in the wedding and portraiture specialty- methods, lighting, concepts, marketing, and legalities and the business end of the job. My first Masters's credential was earned mostly in wedding and portrait photography.

Now, folks, I am not here to boast about my credentials, education or, experience but suffice it to say that I've been actively engaged in this sector of the business for a very long time and it is still a viable and successful aspect on my business operation. Nor am I here to give anyone a detailed tutorial on wedding photography concepts. Just consider this "advice" from an old photographer with a grey beard:

If your clients are looking at the frame numbers on your images rather than the content of your coverage and are NOT bowled over by the impact of the emotion, style and beauty you created for them, you are in deep "you know what"!

Common sense- when you watch a good movie unless you are a student of cinematography, are you interested in the outtakes- the film on the editor's floor? Or are you impacted by the story, the performances, the music, the emotional content? Are Acadamy Awards bestowed on the outtakes or the finished product?

I'm 61 years, I have never shown a wedding or portrait client unfinished contact sheets with sprocket holes, and "Kodak Safety Film emblazoned in the margins- those are distractions! I didn't want to spend hours explaining why "proofs are rough" and all the things I was going to fix. I fixed whatever was needed to be fixed before showing the images. The selection process was based on creating storey telling sequences with emotion, joyous, and even funny impact. My digital presentation is not different- images are shown in sequence and the number and identification system is my own- not what came out of the camera or the EXIF data.

Y'all do not have to adopt my concept but if anyone wants to survive in the wedding photography business, CREATE a CONCEPT of your own, other than having the client select images like an amateur buying photofinishing services and start shooting more creatively and emotionally.

More common sense. The wedding clients buy many other services- catering, floral bouquets and decoration, entertainment- musicians or a DJ. Are they asked to grow or pick the flowers, arrange them? Are they asked to pitch in and help cook the food, or set up the sound gear? NO! they hire professionals, make s selections and leave the rest to trusted pros! Be one!

If you are a professional photographer running a business you have no time to be an amateur lawyer. Consult a real one! Put your policies down on paper and have a lawyer construct a contract form that is ethical and protects the interest of all parties. Have it converted to English and avoid small print or ambiguous terms. The fee you pay the lawyer is money well spent because you will preclude the high legal fees that arise if you have disagreements with cleits and even nasty lawsuits.

I am not one to refuse business. I enjoy shooting weddings and creating good stuff for my customers and the money is good too. If however, if I detect an uncooperative potential client, I will gracefully decline the job. I detest the word "bridezilla" - I treat the brides and grooms like my own kids! I seldom encounter a downright nasty bride or groom to be-it's just that some folks don't see eye to eye with me or my policies or methodologies, have other concepts or methods in mind. They are perfectly OK fols but would be better served elsewhere.

A little more common sense: Folks will not spend their hard-earned money with people they don't like and get along with.

My only hard a fast rule is that I will never shoot a wedding unless I can plan the logistics, the concept, and the terms well in advance, with the wedding couple. The only time a break that rule is if one of my friendly competitors have an emergency- an illness, a family loss, or some kind of unfortunate occurrence and can not cover a job- we kinda have a mutual pact! After all, my first solo job was an "emergency"!
I shot my first "solo" wedding when I wa... (show quote)
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Feb 15, 2021 12:20:28   #
wdross wrote:
If you set a package limit, all other acceptable photos are for sale. My clients tried the interpret the "purchase of all acceptable proofs" as being every proof. Trust me, no matter how good a photographer one is, there will be at least one shot done at a wedding that will not meet the standards for wedding photographers. Those shots are not a part of "purchase of all acceptable proofs". I was final able to convince my clients if we went to court, I would bring other photographers from my professional photography guild to prove not all proofs are "acceptable". And I never showed them the unacceptable proofs to begin with - even though they wanted them.
If you set a package limit, all other acceptable p... (show quote)


So you’ve run into this challenge as well.
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Feb 15, 2021 12:16:47   #
Scruples wrote:
Years ago, my parents lost a lot of their wedding photos to a fire. The photographer had passed away and photography studio had closed. My parents were heartbroken and I tried to repair the few that remained. They were happy that I was able to repair photographs from some of the smoke damage.
For my wedding, I had asked our photographer if I could buy the negatives (film was still an in thing.). We agreed on the albums and the negatives in an amicable agreement. The negatives are kept in a safe in our home. I still have our album nice and safe and as well as my parent’s album.
I understand intellectual and artistic property but consider the additional storage cost. Keeping photographs for years on end. Where would you store this art work? Unless your client doesn’t sign a release, why would a skilled craftsman lose an opportunity to make additional money fairly? Besides you can keep one or two images in a show off album of your own.
Years ago, my parents lost a lot of their wedding ... (show quote)


I’m unclear about your response. Are you saying keeping prints would be a challenge. They’re digital files right? I’m confuse. Please explain.
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