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Jan 2, 2018 10:37:45   #
blackest wrote:
... In another thread a figure of 6.5 stops was given as what was needed to get a clean exposure below that and noise becomes apparent.

DXO has tested many camera's and from my own limited experience the 6.5 stop figure seems fair. ...

6.5 is the figure used at PhotonsToPhotos to determine Low Light ISO.

Here's a link to the table with relevant values: www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#resizableT

It's important to realize that such sensor testing reports dynamic range in linear space.
But the final image, and human vision, operate in a more logarithmic fashion.
So any comparisons would be "apples to oranges".
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Oct 28, 2017 23:49:03   #
TriX wrote:
I’m going to have to digest this a bit. So help me here. By read noise, are you referring to the quantization error of the A/D? In my comment, I’m referring to the resolution of the A/D. So a 12 bit A/D has only 4096 possible integer values as an output and only 12 data lines as an output, each that can be only 1 or 0. 13 bits is 8192 possible values. How can a device that has only possible integer values outputs of 0 - 4096 have an integer output between 4096 and 8192? Perhaps I’m misunderstanding you...
I’m going to have to digest this a bit. So help me... (show quote)

The pixel is an analog device with a dynamic range.
We determine (measure) that dynamic range (and other values) by repeatedly sampling the pixel to get, for example, and average (Signal) and a standard deviation (Noise).
These values, the Signal and the Noise are not integral, they are decimal numbers. Both Signal and Noise are measurable below 1 Digital Number (DN aka ADU aka LSB)
They are not measurable all the way down to zero; that's where quantization error fits in; quantization error says you can't go lower than ~0.288 DN
But, in practice, because of inaccuracies in the bias (BlackLevel) we only see reliable results down to about 0.6 to 0.7 DN (the Panasonic being an extreme case at 0.54DN)

Regards,
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Oct 28, 2017 22:06:25   #
TriX wrote:
I think we are in substantial agreement. Just a few comments:
...
My point was that the actual (emphasis on actual) measured resolution and DR of an A/D is typically less than the theoretical value. ...
Chris

Sorry, this is exactly where you are wrong, at least regarding the application in digital cameras.
In my read noise measurements of over 200 cameras I have definitely encountered cameras with read noise of less than 1 LSB.
Most of these cases are 12-bit ADC that really should be 14-bit.
Here's one example, the Panasonic Lumix DMC-GX80
See www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/RN_ADU.htm#Panasonic%20Lumix%20DMC-GX80_12
Note the curve starts to "misbehave below 1 (0 on logarithmic y-axis) due to the influence of quantization error.
But it ultimately gets down to about 0.54 DN; that's actually 13 stops


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Oct 28, 2017 20:50:55   #
Substantially correct. I have a few tweaks below...
TriX wrote:
.... The digitizer has a theoretical dynamic range which is usually specified in bits.

Analog to Digital Converter (ADC) bit depth is simply bit depth (eg. 14-bits). Regarding dynamic range, see below.
TriX wrote:
...typically an amplifier between the sensor and the digitizer, and it contributes its own noise to the chain. When you change the ISO setting of your camera, you are changing one of two variables - one being the gain of the amplifier. As you raise the gain and amplify the signal, you also amplify the noise, decreasing the dynamic range (the dynamic range of the digitizer is limited on the low end by noise from both the sensor and the amplifier).

When you raise the ISO setting (one stop for example) you lose an equal amount of highlight dynamic range because the ADC gets clipped.
Surprisingly, you actually get a small increase in shadow dynamic range (noise goes up a little less than signal so Signal to Noise Ratio (SNR) actually improves in the shadows).
The net effect is that you loose less than one stop of dynamic range per stop of increased ISO setting.
WWhen the shadow improvement reaches diminishing returns you achieve "ISO Invariance".
TriX wrote:
...How ISO is set depends on the camera manufacturer, but in Canons (which I know best) it controls both the gain of the amplifier (as stated above) and digitally manipulates the digitized data from the A/D. Up to about ISO 800-1,000, it’s accomplished by changes in amplifier gain, but after that, changing the ISO setting multiplies the digital value of the A/D mathematically. I believe that most cameras rely only on manipulating the digital value beyond ~ ISO 1000, but I’m glad to be corrected if I’m mistaken. If you look at the DR vs ISO curve of a typical Canon, you’ll see the steps as the amplifier gain changes up to about ISO 1000, after which it smooths out because the changes are accomplished digitally.
...How ISO is set depends on the camera manufactur... (show quote)

Canon cameras often use either digital scaling or a second analog gain to accomplish intermediate ISO settings which can give dynamic range curves a "jagged" look.
At PhotonsToPhotos I detect digital scaling and other manipulations which are indicated by various symbols on the charts.
For example, an open triangle (pointing up) indicates digital scaling whereas an open triangle pointing down indicates noise reduction.
TriX wrote:
...There are other contributors of noise in the acquisition/digitizing chain including quantization error (how accurately the A/D quantifies/digitizes the incoming analog signal) ... the net-net is that the effective dynamic range of an A/D is always less than the base DR in bits...

Quantization error is not added to the noise. As you indicated it is a limiting factor on the smallest measurement that can be made.
Theoretically quantization error is limited to 1/sqrt(12) = 0.29 bits but in practice things fall apart below about 0.6 to 0.7 bits.
So, strange as it seems, you can get about 1/2 stop more dynamic range out of an ADC than it's bit depth. In other words 14.5 stops for a 14-bit ADC.

Regards,
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Oct 3, 2017 14:23:15   #
bwana wrote:
I've always equated photosite size with low light performance, i.e.: the larger the photosite, the better the low light performance. DxO Mark shows Low Light performance for all the cameras they test; good spot to check.

For normalized measures, the one we normally care about, what matters is sensor size rather than photosite size.
FWIW, PhotonsToPhotos also has a Low Light ISO measure.
It's listed in the sort-able table below the interactive Photographic Dynamic Range (PDR) (www.PhotonsToPhotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm) chart.
Comparisons are best made with the EV (stops) value.
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Apr 8, 2017 12:15:53   #
CatMarley wrote:
Lightness or darkness is the DEFINITION of "exposure". ie too light = overexposed, too dark=underexposed.


No. Photographic exposure is determined by the Exposure Value which is the aperture and shutter.
The lightness or darkness of the resulting photograph starts out with the photographic exposure but also has had tone curve and other adjustments applied.
Think about it, you can't overexpose a picture by using the making it too bright in Photoshop.
The exposure is baked in when you choose you aperture and shutter speed.
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Apr 8, 2017 11:08:18   #
bsprague wrote:
Videographers worry about it because the lens will "breath" and change a composition when they are using focus to change the point of interest (focus pulling). Videographers will sometimes spend a lot of money for special lenses that won't breath (and have other traits not needed in still photography).


They also often care if a lens is parfocal, does not change focus when focal length is changed (zoomed). Most of our zoom lenses are not parfocal.
I have one such lens, it can be very helpful.
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Apr 8, 2017 11:05:12   #
marki3rd wrote:
I do not beleive that the term "breathing" has anything what-so-ever to do with moving air in or out of the lens. That is something you just came up with on your own to explain the term.

"Breathing" is a term that has been used forever by Engineers and Mechanics and others to describe the effect of one thing changing when another is adjusted.


You could be right but I'd like to see a citation on that.
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Apr 8, 2017 09:16:03   #
CatMarley wrote:
If God sets the light, and you set the shutter speed and aperture, there is only ONE correct ISO that will deliver a correct exposure. You can set it, or you can let the camera set it. It is going to be the same ISO either way! So unless you just like busy work, you might as well take advantage of your camera's algorithm!


I don't know if this distinction is made at Ugly Hedgehog but shutter speed and aperture are your exposure and the ISO setting affects the lightness of the image, not exposure.
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Apr 8, 2017 01:30:26   #
Mac wrote:
How about when you are photographing a bird that is flying from shadow to light to shadow and you want a fast shutter speed---say 1/2000 and a small aperture---say f/11? You could be the worlds greatest authority on ISO and still you would not be quick enough to change the ISO to the needed setting for each change of light. The same if you are shooting a flower under a partly cloudy sky with the clouds moving to block then unblock the sun?


I don't have my birds in flight example handy but this old post is similar:
www.photonstophotos.net/GeneralTopics/Exposure/ISO_Auto_on_Parade.htm

Oh, here's a bird in flight:
For the 16 shots ISO varied from 220 to 640.


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Apr 8, 2017 01:30:12   #
henderson111 wrote:
I am relatively new to my Canon 7D Mark II camera. I was wondering when should I use Auto ISO and what should my max and min settings be??
Any suggestions.


I don't shoot Canon but the only time I don't use ISO Auto is when I'm using flash because ISO Auto isn't smart enough to know about the additional light.
(There's no harm, remember, nothing happens unless you can't gather enough light by aperture and shutter speed.)

With the 7D Mark II they sky is the limit although you won't gain much above about ISO 1280.
See www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR_Shadow.htm#Canon%20EOS%207D%20Mark%20II
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Apr 8, 2017 01:17:32   #
Rab-Eye wrote:
Here's how I understand it: when you focus, it looks as if you are also turning the zoom ring. Do I have it, or if not, would you please correct me?

Thanks!

The focal length of a lens is determined at infinity focus.
As you focus closer the only way to maintain that infinity focal length is to focus by extending the entire lens away from the sensor plane.
(One common current example is the 50mm f/1.8D AF-Nikkor (D not G) )
But that would mean that lenses could extend very far out on a long helicoid.
So quite some time ago lens designers started making the lenses extend less but decrease in focal length as you focus closer.
For most lenses that also meant the air would move in/out of the lens; hence the term "focus breathing".
But it's a misnomer because even internal focus lenses that don't "breath" almost certainly decrease in focal length as you focus closer.
Because the focal length decreases as you focus closer you get a larger Field Of View (FOV) so yes, it might appear that you are zooming.
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Apr 7, 2017 17:42:15   #
Well, I think you misunderstand my position.
I never said don't take a picture at higher ISO settings.
I say use the lowest ISO setting that your photographic situation allows.
That means don't take a picture at ISO 800 that you could take at ISO 100; but do so if you can't gather enough light for ISO 100.
You may get more Image Quality (IQ) than you need.
On the other hand, you might be happy to have the "excess" IQ if afterwards you decide to crop more aggressively than usual, for example.
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Apr 7, 2017 15:24:02   #
Often when a range is cited it's the range of ISO setting for which only analog gain is applied by the camera electronics.
For the ILCE-6500 from DxOMark numbers I judge that as ISO 100 to ISO 6400. (I haven't got A6500 measurements of my own yet.)
Beyond ISO 6400 appears to be digital scaling.
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Apr 7, 2017 14:56:25   #
"Native" ISO is a confusing subject. It's generally the highest ISO setting that has the lowest analog gain applied inside the camera.
Often that's the lowest ISO setting excluding "extended" ones, but there are exceptions.

For your Canon EOS 5D Mark II ISO 160 is a good choice but actually ISO 100 could also be considered native.
Canons screwy treatment of intermediate ISOs has always confused this issue.

For the Sony ILCE-6500 it's ISO 100; period.

There is never a range of native ISO settings, but more and more often you will see two rather than one.
Dual conversion gain technology makes the pixel behave in two different ways each with it's own native sensitivity.
For these cameras I would say there are two native ISO settings. (This can be a nuisance to those who use ISO Auto)
An example of such a camera is the Sony ILCA-99M2; one native ISO at 100 and the second at ISO 500.
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