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Posts for: ngc1514
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Oct 2, 2012 08:17:38   #
hj wrote:
Bmac wrote:
GeneB wrote:
Both voting parties made bad choices once again. I do not know yet who I will vote against (not for) this year because I have trouble deciding who will do the least damage to the country.


So then vote for someone else via write in, or vote for one of the others who will be running. I do believe Roseanne Barr is a candidate for president. 8-)


A write-in vote is a wasted vote as there is no chance of winning. The best course of action is to choose the lesser of two evils.
quote=Bmac quote=GeneB Both voting parties made... (show quote)


http://ericpix.net/Online/Misc/cthulhu.jpg
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Oct 2, 2012 08:13:01   #
Not sure if he is on your state's ballot, but former New Mexico governor Gary Johnson is the Libertarian candidate on many ballots. From his Wiki:

Quote:
Johnson holds fiscally conservative, socially tolerant views, and a philosophy of limited government and military noninterventionism. As well as a libertarian, he has often identified as a classical liberal. Johnson is in favor of simplifying and reducing taxes. During his governorship, Johnson cut taxes fourteen times and never increased them. Due to his stance on taxes, political pundit David Weigel described him as "the original Tea Party candidate". Johnson supports balancing the federal budget immediately. He supports "slashing government spending", including Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security. His plans include cutting Medicare and Medicaid by 43 percent and turning them into block grant programs, with control of spending in the hands of the states to create "fifty laboratories of innovation". He advocates passing a law allowing for state bankruptcy and expressly ruling out a federal bailout of any states. Johnson has expressed opposition to the Federal Reserve System, which he cites as massively devaluing the strength of the U.S. dollar, and would sign legislation to eliminate it. He otherwise supports an audit of the central bank, and urged Members of Congress in July 2012 to vote in favor of Ron Paul's Federal Reserve Transparency Act.
In his campaign for the Libertarian Party nomination, he stated he opposed foreign wars and pledged to cut the military budget by 43 percent in his first budget as president. He would cut the military's overseas bases, uniformed and civilian personnel, research and development, intelligence, and nuclear weapons programs. He is opposed to the United States' involvement in the War in Afghanistan and the Libyan Civil War. He has stated that he does not believe Iran is a military threat, would use his presidential power to prevent Israel from attacking Iran, and would not follow Israel, or any other ally, into a war that it had initiated.
Johnson is a strong supporter of civil liberties and received the highest score of any candidate from the American Civil Liberties Union for supporting drug decriminalization and having a pro-choice stance on abortion, while opposing censorship and regulation of the Internet, the Patriot Act, enhanced airport screenings, and the indefinite detention of prisoners. Johnson endorsed same-sex marriage in 2011; he has since called for a constitutional amendment protecting equal marriage rights, and criticized President Obama's position on the issue as to have "thrown this question back to the states."
Johnson holds fiscally conservative, socially tole... (show quote)


It's time for a viable third party in American politics.
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Oct 1, 2012 23:30:06   #
wpromine wrote:
ngc1514 wrote:
wpromine wrote:
You were not addressing your responses to the above posting to me, but, please, allow me to ask you, once again, to read "Mere Christianity". C.S. Lewis explains answers to several of your counter-points much more thoughtfully and logically than I. His answers are persuasive and address some of your exact questions. You are not "predestined to be disappointed by a lack of an answer" unless you choose to be.

Did you miss my response to your first mention of Lewis?

Quote:
Your assumption is that some of us haven't read Lewis or Josh McDowell and his Evidence that Demands a Verdict or Pierre Teilhard de Chardin's The Phenomena of Man or Augustine's City of God and others.

Probably not a safe assumption.

I was countering your assumption that I haven't already read it. It was not a safe assumption on your part.

Sorry if my wording confused you.
quote=wpromine You were not addressing your respo... (show quote)


Have you read it?
quote=ngc1514 quote=wpromine You were not addres... (show quote)

That's what I said. Along with McDowell, Teilhard de Chardin, Kaufmann's Faith of a Heretic, Augustine's City of God and a pile of other christian apologetics.

I've also read Henry Morris, Duane Gish and Michael Behe.

Because turn about is fair play... what were the last books you read on evolution and cosmology?
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Oct 1, 2012 20:33:34   #
wpromine wrote:
You were not addressing your responses to the above posting to me, but, please, allow me to ask you, once again, to read "Mere Christianity". C.S. Lewis explains answers to several of your counter-points much more thoughtfully and logically than I. His answers are persuasive and address some of your exact questions. You are not "predestined to be disappointed by a lack of an answer" unless you choose to be.

Did you miss my response to your first mention of Lewis?

Quote:
Your assumption is that some of us haven't read Lewis or Josh McDowell and his Evidence that Demands a Verdict or Pierre Teilhard de Chardin's The Phenomena of Man or Augustine's City of God and others.

Probably not a safe assumption.

I was countering your assumption that I haven't already read it. It was not a safe assumption on your part.

Sorry if my wording confused you.
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Oct 1, 2012 12:58:26   #
wpromine wrote:

I have stated before in these discussions that evolution vs the "Adam and Eve" biblical story are, to me, not mutually exclusive. It doesn't matter to me how He created all things because it doesn't diminish the awesomeness of the results. So, in this thread, I have discussed the relevence of God to us as humans. I, also, have said that I respect beliefs contrary to my own and, in so doing, I do not demean the intellegence of those who disagree.

Does this mean you are not a young earth creationist?
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Oct 1, 2012 12:56:54   #
wpromine wrote:
Here is a challenge to those who believe this way, though I doubt they will allow themselves to accept. Carefully read C. S. Lewis' book "Mere Christianity." This man, and many others, also possess superior intellects. In fact, C.S. Lewis was an atheist early in his adult life.


Your assumption is that some of us haven't read Lewis or Josh McDowell and his Evidence that Demands a Verdict or Pierre Teilhard de Chardin's The Phenomena of Man or Augustine's City of God and others.

Probably not a safe assumption.
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Oct 1, 2012 12:46:42   #
SteveR wrote:
Isaiah 14:12-14
King James Version (KJV)

12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

Interesting how all these spiritual beings suffer from the same petty issues as humans. Exactly what you'd expect if they were myths and legends created by early man.

Which, I suppose, they were.
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Oct 1, 2012 12:42:20   #
mericando wrote:
Ok NGC - Now that is 1 of the stupidest answers I have ever heard from an evolutionist. Unless there is in the scientific world Intelligent Design, (or in truth God) there can be no predestination.

And you know this... how? You seem to be setting up a false dichotomy that the existence of free will or predestination requires some god figure. That's your assertion, so I'll let you support it. Obviously history shows us that firm believers in god are also in favor of predestination. Calvin, for one, but Augustine and Francis and Luther also accepted predestination.

But is god really necessary to accept the idea of predestination? Let's assume you have free will as do I. I decide, of my own free will, to carry you to the top of a tall building and drop you. Can your free will overcome the laws of physics or are you going to go SPLAT on the sidewalk 60 floors down? From the moment I let go, your free will was overpowered by the fact of gravity. Your abbreviated future is predestined by the my action and the planet's gravitational force.

That is an extreme example, but how do you know the same laws of physics, biochemistry and biology are not working at the microscopic level to shape that which you believe is free will? In other words, how can you show what you call free will isn't a simple illusion fabricated by the body and brain?


Quote:
According to your own statement there is no God or Intelligent Designer,

Nope, that's a statement lacking in veracity - it's not true. I have never said there is no god. What I claim is that whether god exists or not, he/she/it is irrelevant. Big difference! I'll accept your apology for making a false statement about what I have said.

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we all came from inanimate material and all the little atoms, molecules, amino acids, protein,cells etc, etc just happen to come together in the right sequence and viola' out comes life and then that life oozed out more life, then that life oozed out a different life form and other life forms came to be and so and so, and some became male life forms and other female, and some became dogs, cats, elephants, dinosaurs, fish, whales, sharks, octopi, snakes lions Oh, my, kept going until we got to this stage and then BOOOM life stopped evolving.(And I believe in fairy tales get real)
we all came from inanimate material and all the l... (show quote)

A kindergarten exposition on what science actually says. I assume you, like so many others who reject evolution, have never read a serious book on the subject. Your argument is an argument from ignorance. Not a strong logical position., but it appears the best you can muster.

Quote:
Really great scenario, but given the way you believe we came to be, there is no such thing as predestination. If you will check the meaning of predestination you will see it is associated with believers of God or gods.

Wrong again. The first definition in the OED reads:

"The action of predestinating, or fact of being predestinated; the ordaining or determination of events before they come to pass; pre-appointment by, or in the way of, fate or destiny; foreordination."

No mention of god at all. When I let you drop those 60 floors, god had nothing to do with your predestined mess on the flagstones below. You are working with a very limited view of predestination.

Quote:
And reading the foolishness of those that have closed their hearts and minds to the truth.


I do so wish you'd answer the interesting question of how you could determine if a group of people had free will or not before you scuttle off. I guess I am predestined to be disappointed by a lack of an answer.
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Oct 1, 2012 08:52:03   #
How about "Live dirt up a side track carted is a putrid evil." Never heard the requirement for anything other than a palindrome needs the letters to read the same and not the words.

From the OED:

1.A.1 A word, verse, or sentence that reads the same when the letters composing it are taken in the reverse order.
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Sep 30, 2012 21:50:54   #
SteveR wrote:
ngc1514 wrote:
wpromine wrote:
Much of what has been discussed here is actually doctrine, ie: man's "take' or interperation of God's intent. That is what turns many away. 'How can a just God allow terrible injustices?' A large percentage of these are by the hand of man---by his decision to persecute and make war for greed and power---yes, many are in His name, but are by man's hand and his will. Even church doctrine has man's hand on much of it. God's blamed for far more more than He deserves for acts of man done "in His name".
Much of what has been discussed here is actually ... (show quote)


Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then He is not omnipotent.

Is He able, but not willing? Then He is malevolent.

Is He both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?

Is He neither able nor willing? Then why call Him God?

Epicurus (c. 341 - c. 270 BC)

What's your choice?
quote=wpromine Much of what has been discussed h... (show quote)



Ah!! One of the best questions yet. It is, of course, perhaps the great thesis of the Bible. How Lucifer the archangel and a group of angels attempted a coup against God and were cast from His presence, allowed to be loose for a time to have influence on earth, only to be eventually chained forever. God could have chained Lucifer and his demons from the beginning, but chose not to. The battle between good and evil serves God's purpose. Malevolent? Without this spiritual battle man would not exist. As far as the universe goes, we are unique. We are the battleground of good and evil.
quote=ngc1514 quote=wpromine Much of what has b... (show quote)

Are you sure this isn't the script from an old Twilight Zone??

What, exactly, does a "coup against god" mean?
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Sep 30, 2012 21:48:10   #
mericando wrote:
That is a no brainer--I choose to believe in God--you don't We both chose our path. A bank robbery at one point has to choose to rob or not to rob and stay out of jail. A person chooses to hold their temper and walk away, or to let it explode and do harm to someone else. Yes there are mental factors that play into some people's lives but even then, many choose not to take the medicine that will help them function in this world. Got a nephew who refuses, and because of that, he is serving time. Had he stayed on the meds, then he would have made a better choice.
That is a no brainer--I choose to believe in God--... (show quote)

No, it's not a "no brainer" for the simple fact that you have not demonstrated free will. You have given examples of what you think are instances of free will, but how do you know the person with the temper has any choice in how he actually responds? Your nephew may be predestined to refuse his meds and have absolutely no choice in the matter. In a few years he might be predestined to do something different.

That's the reason why I asked how a world without free will would look. Seems to me it would look exactly like the world in which we live.
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Sep 30, 2012 16:26:51   #
mericando wrote:
Humans have free will-If not we would be robots.

That is your claim, your assertion. Now support it.

How do you know we have free will? How would our lives be different if we didn't? How could you tell the difference?
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Sep 30, 2012 12:31:37   #
wpromine wrote:
Much of what has been discussed here is actually doctrine, ie: man's "take' or interperation of God's intent. That is what turns many away. 'How can a just God allow terrible injustices?' A large percentage of these are by the hand of man---by his decision to persecute and make war for greed and power---yes, many are in His name, but are by man's hand and his will. Even church doctrine has man's hand on much of it. God's blamed for far more more than He deserves for acts of man done "in His name".
Much of what has been discussed here is actually ... (show quote)


Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then He is not omnipotent.

Is He able, but not willing? Then He is malevolent.

Is He both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?

Is He neither able nor willing? Then why call Him God?

Epicurus (c. 341 - c. 270 BC)

What's your choice?
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Sep 29, 2012 15:31:45   #
dachs wrote:
Bazamac wrote:
Seen any gods out there when you've been looking?


He's likely been too busy admiring The good Lord's work in constructing the Universe, depending on the power of his eyepiece.

Yes I abbreviated the NGC unwholesomely, but at least you caught my drift.

Back to the query, one has only to see the Horsehead Nebula (sadly, for me, only in photos) one has only to see this to realise that God exists and Terry Pratchett was wholly correct.

Go cheerfully, as always
quote=Bazamac Seen any gods out there when you've... (show quote)

Does watching a supernova possibly wipe out all life within a few light years also show god exists? Or are we just observing the laws of physics at work?

Photos of the Horsehead are far more impressive than the object itself. In my 16" scope it's a dark thumbprint against a background nebula barely brighter than the surrounding sky. Would have been helpful if god had designed our eyes to accumulate photons like the bins in a CCD.
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Sep 29, 2012 15:09:51   #
Bazamac wrote:
Seen any gods out there when you've been looking?


Alas, no. Not even a single flying saucer. I keep looking for those Pearly Gates...
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