I've been on both sides of the competition thing. For me a winning photo is a "complete" photo. Other than "Open Mind" or "Creative" or "Anything Goes" classes of competition, where abstract, conceptual or contemplative type images are submitted - a complete photo means that all aspects of the image - the camera related stuff - composition, focus, aperture, shutter speed, depth of field - are all handled properly, and then the post processing is similarly handled in such a way as to not distract from the image, and lastly, where appropriate in an image - the story. A strong image often has a story, even if it fails the so-called rules of composition. A high-key image on first impression to the uninitiated may appear overexposed, a blurry image of a Cheetah chasing an Impala at 60 mph where the story is clear - but focus, blur, noise etc which would be verboten in a picture of a building are totally appropriate in such an image - all of these break one or more of the long-held standards of image quality.

Just because someone has expertise in manipulating an image doesn't automatically make him/her an amazing photographer that will prevail in competitions. And the converse is true - just because you took the image with a cellphone or point and shoot camera doesn't make the image appear weak, amateurish or otherwise without merit.

When I judge, I can rarely tell what camera took the picture, or whether it started life as a jpeg out of the camera or it was processed from raw - nor does it matter to me. But I can spot an overprocessed image - take a look at any of Ken Rockwell's images - he maxes out all of his camera settings to create images that generate pain to my eyes and artistic sensibilities. If you want an example of overcooked jpegs that involve some post processing - then look no further than Trey Radcliff's work - he does what KR does but with a lot of exposure stacking - HDR. Or check out Captain Kimo in Florida - looking at their work gives me a headache. You don't need to start with a raw file to come up with "startling" (not in a good sense) images.

On the other hand, if you have a good artistic sense, even if you have horrible computer skills, you can use image editing software creatively to make your images into whatever you want - anything from a simple yet carefully lit portrait (little to no post processing) to something grand and spectacular that a viewer may find memorable, or better yet, appropriate enough to order a print to hang on their wall - and everything in between.

Being a computer geek is never a prerequisite to making good photography. But knowing your way around some image editing programs lets you more fully exploit the potential in your camera and in your creativity. You don't need to be very creative to use a camera as a visual recorder of life. But rarely are "real" images very interesting, except for really good reportage and some street photography. The images that are captivating are usually those where the photographer controls the entire process, from pre-visualization to final output and clearly takes a few risks to make the image different and personal.

I can't tell you how many images taken with cellphones have scored highly in competitions.

New to group and photography...am 67 and purchased an entry level (1st DSLR) Nikon D3400 in December. Having a great time with it, have shot exclusively in manual mode to learn how to use the camera and maneuver the different settings and have learned more than I ever realized I did not know, but still lots to learn. Am wondering when and why you would use shutter priority or aperture priority over manual mode.....I can guess it would speed things up but if that is the case when would you know to use those settings? Thanks for any input you can give.

From one gear head to another, I have no doubt that every thing you said is true, and true about me. A little history:

I started experimenting with Dad's old Ansco 35 mm lever cocked shutter guess and shoot in late 60's. Didn't do too bad. It died on a 4 week cross country vacation. Studied up on every brand of slr and bought a Canon AE1Program and 2 Solarigr zoom lenses. With all the new bells, my average increased. Exit film, enter digital. 2008 a Canon XSi and two zoom lenses. I have thousands of digital images on my computers and memory cards. I also have a few(4) that I have printed, not counting the neighbors wedding last summer. I have lightly dabbled in post processing using a half dozen different programs.

The future: I want to start improving (pp) the photos I have, and will take. But sometimes learning photography here on the Hog is like learning to play golf by trying to catch golf balls at a driving range. Catching bits n pieces, some good, some bad, and ducking the unsure. A good book would help, maybe. I did find Al Judge's series of books on Amazon. I like his style, short, to the point, and no fluff. He started with pin hole cameras and worked up. I have learned something from every book. It seems to me, from reading the hog, that for me, understanding what a sensor, sensor array, and computer does to make a raw file then convert it into a Dnf, Tiff, or jpeg file, will give me that strong foundation to build my pp abilities upon. It's a lot easier to build upon a strong foundation than to flounder around aimlessly, then have to go back and start over, which is what it seems like I'm doing now.

So, if you have suggestions for good books on post processing for beginners, I'm all ears. If the books are Adobe Photoshop specific, I'm going to groan and decline. I'm leaning towards Corel AfterShot and Paint Shop Pro so that I don't have to relie on an internet connection if I'm traveling. The two highest items on my learning agenda are; organizing and workflow. I've been trying to read the DAM book on oganizing, but I get tired of reading fluff. Work flow starts with adjusting the raw file in what program then saving it into which format and why. Then what is next, and why. I know sharpening comes close to the end.

I did hook up with a local club on Tuesday. There seems to be a couple who are strong in pp. I have hopes.

Maybe next time we can talk cars or whatever.