Ugly Hedgehog - Photography Forum
Home Active Topics Newest Pictures Search Login Register
Main Photography Discussion
Thoughts about shooting film in a digital world
Page <<first <prev 3 of 8 next> last>>
May 22, 2017 09:32:35   #
jccash Loc: Longwood, Florida
 
burkphoto wrote:
I used film from the time my uncle gave me my first camera in 1960 at the age of 5, until 2005. I used film in SLRs and many other advanced cameras from 1968 until 2005. I worked in a pro portrait lab environment from 1979 to 2012, my first eight years as a multi-image AV producer doing training and promotional/motivational shows, the rest as a systems, project, or production manager of some sort. So I think I have a little perspective to offer.

I enjoyed film, when it was all there was. But when I got my first Mac in 1985, I could see that the future would be digital. Five years later, we had Photoshop and 1.2 MP cameras. The Kodak engineers came to our lab and showed us their experimental goodies (camera, Composite Machine, and dye-sublimation printers). A few years later, they showed us the first practical film scanners.

By 1995, we were off to the races, buying scanners, software, servers, and primitive digital printers. In 2002, we installed our first digital mini-lab. By 2007, we had 40 of them.

I said in '95, that film would be a hobby relic in 20 years.

Over the next 12 years, we ripped out all our old optical printers and recycled them, replacing them first with film scanners, software, networks, and mini-labs, then with digital cameras to feed the system.

In early 2005, we brought in a model and photographed her with film (split-70mm Kodak Portra 160NC in 6x4.5 cm format). Then we photographed her with a Canon EOS-20D. We scanned the film, color-corrected both the film and digital images, and printed both sets of images on a Noritsu MP-1600 mini-lab. We brought in all the managers and supervisors for a blind review of the prints.

62% of the staff liked the digital images better. That was good, because that Spring, our retail school portrait photographers began recycling over 400 long roll film cameras and replacing them with 20Ds.

In 2007, all the film processors came out. The film processor operators both had the same form of terminal cancer (35 and 25 year employees). We had to dig out several feet of earth under the concrete floor of the film processing room, to remove polluted soil. HR and legal counsel had a potential nightmare on their hands... But we got lucky. The operators had refused to wear their PPE (personal protective equipment) on multiple occasions.

By 2011, our entire workflow was 100% digital. No order paperwork, no film. Only data on DVD, or moved over the Internet. It was MUCH quicker, and FAR more accurate.

Here are some observations:

We can think just as much with digital cameras as we did with film cameras. In fact, we can think even more, if we like! The difference is, we can get where we want to be a lot faster. All it takes is the self-discipline to do it.

I think (or intuit) just as much about what I'm photographing now — or more — than I did when using film. The physics of light have not changed. The way digital tools react to light is a little different, but with knowledge and care and the right tools, we can get the same look, or something better. I haven't changed my thought process. But with digital tools, it is easier, faster, and more likely I will get exactly what I want.

I still start with a goal for my images. I still think, "Light character, contrast range, color temperature, intensity... Long view, medium view, close-up view... Bird's eye view, worm's eye view, vary the lens perspective... Pose, compose, expose... Anticipate, predict, follow, record... Color, line, form, weight... Balance, flow, negative and positive spaces..." ...But now I get to review and recalculate, on the spot.

If I want, I can "delay gratification" and just make exposures without looking at the OLED display. But why would I, since instant feedback allows immediate adjustment or correction? In FilmWorld, I had to worry about re-photographing (things I could re-photograph), or worry about missing a scene entirely. In DigiWorld, I review, adjust, and retake on the spot. If my idea didn't work, I change it. If my exposure was off, I adjust it.

JPEGs are like slides. With both JPEGs and slide films, to get ideal results, we must control ALL the variables BEFORE we press the shutter release. JPEGs are NOT meant to be edited. There is almost the same +1/2, –2/3 stop latitude. We must NAIL exposure and white balance in the camera if we want accurate subject rendition. Digital camera menu settings are *just like* the bag full of filters, different slide films, and meters I used to carry back in the early '80s. But they're far easier to use, once learned.

Raw files are like color negatives. With both raw files and color negative films, we have lots of exposure latitude (about +/– 2 full stops). We MUST process the images later, to get a usable file or print. WE are the lab, though. We can't send raw files to a lab... We must process them into JPEGs or TIFFs first. The good news is, we have more control over the outcome; the bad news is, we have to exercise that control. That means buying a decent computer, monitor, calibrator, software, and learning to use it all correctly.

I don't miss film. It served me well, but I've moved on. If YOU like it, that's great. Film photography makes a great hobby for those who like working with it. It makes an interesting art medium for those who still use it. But it isn't intrinsically "worse" or "better". It's just an older, different way to work.
I used film from the time my uncle gave me my firs... (show quote)


Now that was a great read. Thank you,

Reply
May 22, 2017 09:42:59   #
AzPicLady Loc: Behind the camera!
 
blackest wrote:
Some are supposed to be very stable others not so much sunlight and air seems to destabilize the dyes. A pigment based ink will probably out last dye based inks. Archival quality Inks should last and glass seems to help. I buy a lot of second hand pictures for the frames and fading of the printed images is very obvious. On the plus side being able to reprint from a digital file is less of a problem than printing from a color negative whose dyes have drifted over time. I've some inkjet prints that seem fairly stable and others severely degraded after just a couple of years...
Some are supposed to be very stable others not so ... (show quote)


I've been surprised and very disappointed about my digital prints having a definite colour shift and fading over a short period of time. It's very noticeable in prints that get left lying out or had a corner peeking out of whatever was on top of them. (I'm sort of a messy person and stuff sits around for a long time before getting discarded or put away.)

Reply
May 22, 2017 09:56:02   #
AzPicLady Loc: Behind the camera!
 
I've never understood the battle for or against film. It always seems like those who don't "like" it want to force film-lovers to switch. I shoot both. I love my 35mm film cameras partly because they use eye-controlled focus which, in my experience, is nearly 100% dead-on. I find having to move the focus point manually extremely slow and causes me to miss a lot of shots. But I do enjoy both, and I frankly believe that no one has the right to try to tell me that any photographic method I enjoy is stupid or that I'm stupid for enjoying it!

Reply
 
 
May 22, 2017 09:58:30   #
jccash Loc: Longwood, Florida
 
Mini wedding photograph that shoot weddings with digital cameras will also use a roll of film to give the bride a different perspective. Seems pretty smart to me.

Reply
May 22, 2017 10:03:57   #
rpavich Loc: West Virginia
 
I shoot film because I like it.

I like shooting it, I like choosing a film for it's particular color palette, I like developing it, I like printing it. I like the process.

I like the way it looks over digital and I like the fact that ever step of the way I can hold something in my hand; something physical that will be here in 100 years.


I develop my own black and white and color film at home and also darkroom print both black and white and color. I like getting to the end and knowing that my decisions all along the chain created this print.


Digital is much less satisfying in that regard for me.


PS: about the comments about waiting for film developing; I can go from shooting to posting online in 2 hours. It's not like the old days at all.


Also, for film users, there is a great phone app coming out on kickstarter that you might be interested in. A new iOS and Android app that lets you use your smartphone to view, scan, process, and share analog film and slides.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3HRMGifKLw

Reply
May 22, 2017 10:06:19   #
Jim Bob
 
Reinaldokool wrote:
I spent almost 50 years shooting film from 35mm to 4x5. I didn't usually "get them developed." I usually developed them myself, both black and white and color. When ALL my work was "lost" by workers clearing my house in Mexico, I made the decision to move entirely to digital. This decision was buttressed by learning of the burden borne by the environment from the chemicals and leached silver of my photography. It was also supported by the ease of creating backup sets that might have protected me from the loss of many thousands of prints, slides and negatives.

As to having to wait to develop the images, I do exactly that when I shoot RAW and have only RAW data until I develop the images in Photoshop, (or more recently Affinity Photo). I do not succumb to the ease of jpeg because my images are almost always superior when I develop them.

There is no reason any longer to shoot film. The quality of the image is no longer better. Indeed it is no longer even discernably different.

Of course, there are antiquarians who choose to use some process like Daguerreotype, Talbot's Process, or Ambrotype. But there will never be enough of those to be problematic.
I spent almost 50 years shooting film from 35mm to... (show quote)


Well some may have a reason to shoot film just as some have a reason to listen to vinyl LPs instead of CDs.

Reply
May 22, 2017 10:06:49   #
EdJ0307 Loc: out west someplace
 
I was stationed at Hickam AFB in Honolulu, Hawaii from 1965 to 1968. Because of the cost of film and processing and being a low paid enlisted person I have hundreds of slides and prints from the experience. If digital had been around then, I could have thousands of photos. Just a thought.

Reply
 
 
May 22, 2017 10:07:30   #
rpavich Loc: West Virginia
 
By the way; if you like to hang with other film users...just go to www.apug.org the film photo users group online. Great bunch of guys and gals and all about film!

Reply
May 22, 2017 10:09:11   #
TJBNovember Loc: Long Island, New York
 
JD750 wrote:
Some thoughts about recent events. I shoot digital and I also shoot film. I get the question 'why' a lot.

Yesterday I went to the beach with my son and grandkids. I took my M43 camera, got some shots I was happy with. However before they left, I took some film pics and my 2.5 yr old granddaughter said "grampaw can I see the picture?" How to explain this? So she is growing up and her understanding of a camera is it is something that you take a picture and you get to see it right away. Not seeing the picture was completely out of her comprehension. I explained that we had to wait to get the film developed, she just gave me a blank stare.

Today I decided, would be a film day, went for a hike with friends, took my film camera with 24-120 F4 lens attached and a couple rolls of film. The thing that struck me was how light that was. The lens was most of the weight. The film camera body is small and light. Much lighter than my D750 but not quite as light as my M43 kit. But still very light for full frame.

The last thought is regarding why do I shoot film anyway? I like the fact that it makes me think more before I press the shutter. I think more about the composition, the exposure, the story. It slows things down. Which is not all bad. And there is something to be said for delayed gratification.

Of course I don't have any images to attach. I will have to wait to get them developed to see them.
Some thoughts about recent events. I shoot digital... (show quote)



What is about film. Perhaps the anticipation of seeing what you captured and how well you managed to, have a certain appeal. Maybe shooting with film occasionally keeps your/our abilities a little sharper, as one might need to slow down and think about the image you hope to have as the end result. Why I still will occasionally shoot film is the simple fact that after putting so much time and effort in to becoming proficient with my film kits, I just can't see them gathering dust. Of course there is also the fact that those kits were built up at considerable investment way back then. So if you or I choose to pull out the old film bodies so be it.

Reply
May 22, 2017 10:10:37   #
dennis2146 Loc: Eastern Idaho
 
burkphoto wrote:
I used film from the time my uncle gave me my first camera in 1960 at the age of 5, until 2005. I used film in SLRs and many other advanced cameras from 1968 until 2005. I worked in a pro portrait lab environment from 1979 to 2012, my first eight years as a multi-image AV producer doing training and promotional/motivational shows, the rest as a systems, project, or production manager of some sort. So I think I have a little perspective to offer.

I enjoyed film, when it was all there was. But when I got my first Mac in 1985, I could see that the future would be digital. Five years later, we had Photoshop and 1.2 MP cameras. The Kodak engineers came to our lab and showed us their experimental goodies (camera, Composite Machine, and dye-sublimation printers). A few years later, they showed us the first practical film scanners.

By 1995, we were off to the races, buying scanners, software, servers, and primitive digital printers. In 2002, we installed our first digital mini-lab. By 2007, we had 40 of them.

I said in '95, that film would be a hobby relic in 20 years.

Over the next 12 years, we ripped out all our old optical printers and recycled them, replacing them first with film scanners, software, networks, and mini-labs, then with digital cameras to feed the system.

In early 2005, we brought in a model and photographed her with film (split-70mm Kodak Portra 160NC in 6x4.5 cm format). Then we photographed her with a Canon EOS-20D. We scanned the film, color-corrected both the film and digital images, and printed both sets of images on a Noritsu MP-1600 mini-lab. We brought in all the managers and supervisors for a blind review of the prints.

62% of the staff liked the digital images better. That was good, because that Spring, our retail school portrait photographers began recycling over 400 long roll film cameras and replacing them with 20Ds.

In 2007, all the film processors came out. The film processor operators both had the same form of terminal cancer (35 and 25 year employees). We had to dig out several feet of earth under the concrete floor of the film processing room, to remove polluted soil. HR and legal counsel had a potential nightmare on their hands... But we got lucky. The operators had refused to wear their PPE (personal protective equipment) on multiple occasions.

By 2011, our entire workflow was 100% digital. No order paperwork, no film. Only data on DVD, or moved over the Internet. It was MUCH quicker, and FAR more accurate.

Here are some observations:

We can think just as much with digital cameras as we did with film cameras. In fact, we can think even more, if we like! The difference is, we can get where we want to be a lot faster. All it takes is the self-discipline to do it.

I think (or intuit) just as much about what I'm photographing now — or more — than I did when using film. The physics of light have not changed. The way digital tools react to light is a little different, but with knowledge and care and the right tools, we can get the same look, or something better. I haven't changed my thought process. But with digital tools, it is easier, faster, and more likely I will get exactly what I want.

I still start with a goal for my images. I still think, "Light character, contrast range, color temperature, intensity... Long view, medium view, close-up view... Bird's eye view, worm's eye view, vary the lens perspective... Pose, compose, expose... Anticipate, predict, follow, record... Color, line, form, weight... Balance, flow, negative and positive spaces..." ...But now I get to review and recalculate, on the spot.

If I want, I can "delay gratification" and just make exposures without looking at the OLED display. But why would I, since instant feedback allows immediate adjustment or correction? In FilmWorld, I had to worry about re-photographing (things I could re-photograph), or worry about missing a scene entirely. In DigiWorld, I review, adjust, and retake on the spot. If my idea didn't work, I change it. If my exposure was off, I adjust it.

JPEGs are like slides. With both JPEGs and slide films, to get ideal results, we must control ALL the variables BEFORE we press the shutter release. JPEGs are NOT meant to be edited. There is almost the same +1/2, –2/3 stop latitude. We must NAIL exposure and white balance in the camera if we want accurate subject rendition. Digital camera menu settings are *just like* the bag full of filters, different slide films, and meters I used to carry back in the early '80s. But they're far easier to use, once learned.

Raw files are like color negatives. With both raw files and color negative films, we have lots of exposure latitude (about +/– 2 full stops). We MUST process the images later, to get a usable file or print. WE are the lab, though. We can't send raw files to a lab... We must process them into JPEGs or TIFFs first. The good news is, we have more control over the outcome; the bad news is, we have to exercise that control. That means buying a decent computer, monitor, calibrator, software, and learning to use it all correctly.

I don't miss film. It served me well, but I've moved on. If YOU like it, that's great. Film photography makes a great hobby for those who like working with it. It makes an interesting art medium for those who still use it. But it isn't intrinsically "worse" or "better". It's just an older, different way to work.
I used film from the time my uncle gave me my firs... (show quote)


I can appreciate your comments from your long and varied experience. Years ago I was the photo manager of a chain drug store. One day the Canon representative came in and we were discussing the future of photography. I asked him something about film and he pointed out that in the very near future there would be no film. I was dumbfounded. Film had been all there was for over 100 years. Now I was told it was going away. The Canon representative explained that cameras would use a tiny disc to capture the photos and the photos would then be seen instantly on a computer. Again, more dumbfounded as I knew nothing about computers either. It was maybe 1993 when I owned my first computer, a Compaq and signed on to AOL.

Flash forward to 2000 and I was going to Africa for a hunting safari. Of course I needed a camera as well. My choices were the Nikon F100 or D100. Being afraid of digital and not having a clue as to how the digital cameras would work, or not, I chose the film camera. All went pretty well and I got some great photos. But as many of us have found out using film cameras, if the film is not caught by the take up spool all goes South pretty quick. I got home and found out that 10 of my 36 exposure rolls had not caught on the take up spool so I had 360 non photos. I still shoot film and presently have a Leica M6 on order but also have a Leica M10 on order as well. Those cameras and my Nikon D800 should serve me well in the future.

Dennis

Reply
May 22, 2017 10:14:47   #
TJBNovember Loc: Long Island, New York
 
Jim Bob wrote:
Well some may have a reason to shoot film just as some have a reason to listen to vinyl LPs instead of CDs.


Just a thought, it seems old vinyl is in, in some circles again. As the appearance of USB turntables will attest. As CD's while still going strong if you walk through the music section at some big box stores, the infringement of downloading to one's smart phone has got to be having some affect. BTW, I still have my collection of vinyl and a turntable to play them on.

Reply
 
 
May 22, 2017 10:17:27   #
jenny Loc: in hiding:)
 
tturner wrote:
Here's something to think about: First of all I shoot exclusively jpeg photos, only because I don't want to spend the money on an image processing program that I have to "upgrade" constantly, the other reason is because for me, shooting jpeg is a digital equivalent to shooting slides on film. I read an article many years ago that stated "if you want to find out how good a photographer you really are, shoot slide film" the reason being is that unlike negatives, slides cannot be processed like a negative, slide film is far less forgiving. One question I am often asked is "how do you do your post processing" when I tell them it is a jpeg many do not believe me and I have had people argue that such an image is not possible in jpeg mode one such image is displayed here.. I guess they are talking about the back ground. But the greater point I want to make is that "at the end of the day, it doesn't matter. when you get to the end of your life and you are standing before GOD, it won't matter whether you shot jpeg or raw, film or digital. I will probably have people jumping all over me just for saying that but that's ok.
Here's something to think about: First of all I sh... (show quote)

* * * * *
Some good points here, and at the, "end of the day" ,everyone will find out who was totally honest and who switched backgrounds.

Reply
May 22, 2017 10:18:56   #
dennis2146 Loc: Eastern Idaho
 
JD750 wrote:
Hi Dennis, I have a Nikon N80 and a Hasselbald 500cm.


Thanks. I was just curious as to what camera you were using.

Dennis

Reply
May 22, 2017 10:31:11   #
burkphoto Loc: High Point, NC
 
Jim Bob wrote:
Well some may have a reason to shoot film just as some have a reason to listen to vinyl LPs instead of CDs.


There is a strong cling-to-the-past correlation among folks who like:

AM, FM and shortwave radio instead of Internet radio
CB radio instead of cell phones and smartphones
Paper maps instead of GPS apps on smartphones
Paper checks instead of online banking
Land lines instead of cell phones and smartphones
Analog audio (vinyl and tape) instead of digital audio
Film instead of digital still imaging
Film motion pictures instead of digital video motion pictures
Print news instead of Internet news

The waves of time erase all our sand castles eventually.

Reply
May 22, 2017 10:46:16   #
lamiaceae Loc: San Luis Obispo County, CA
 
JohnSwanda wrote:
There's no such thing as a "film lens". If you mean manual focus lenses, film cameras had autofocus before digital came along.


I'd rather not expand this into an argument. But "film lens" does not mean manual lens. A film lens was and is a lens that was designed for a film camera. Nikon shooters may be aware of being able to use older lenses, both MF and AF from their film cameras on their new DSLR. Those shooting mirrorless cameras are becoming aware of "film lens" because they can often use older lenses from even different brands. It has been difficult to impossible to use anything but the intended type of lens (mount) for Canon cameras.

But I like the other Pentax shooter know exactly what I mean by "film lens". All Pentax DSLRs can use all Pentax K-mount and Takumar M42 screw mount lenses intended for Pentax cameras. Though certainly with some to many functional restrictions. Pentax (Takumar) screw mount lenses were obviously intended as 35mm film camera lenses. Pentax K-mount K-series, M-series, and A-series lenses are also film lenses covering a FF 24x36mm film frame or sensor. Pentax DA lenses are for APS-C (or in Nikon-ese DX) digital cameras. DA are digital (only) lenses. Though note, some longer Pentax DA* series will just barely cover a FF (or FX) format. Pentax also had F-series lenses that were auto-focus pre-digital autofocus lenses. FA-series Pentax lenses may be used on both film or digital cameras and give AF. Interesting that Pentax made FF modern lenses when they had no FF digital camera until the K-1. To drive my point about "film" vs "digital" lenses. Sure the lens itself is not digital, all lenses are analog (not counting digital electron microscopes). With the quality of digital sensors at 24, 36, 54 MP exceeding the IQ of any film the lenses today might (need to) be better than years ago. In the case of Pentax, yes they have D-FA, HD D-FA lenses with higher IQ. Ziess, Nikon, Canon, Sony, etc. also all make HD lenses for high MP cameras. Just like ages ago 35mm Leica lenses were far sharper than large format lenses. Note, I own several 4x5" view camera lenses, 90mm, 120mm, 150mm, 210mm. As nice as they are they are no match for a 35mm camera lens. Think about it. A 4x5" negative to 8x10" print is only a 2x enlargement. There are HD digital lenses for and due to digital cameras. Yes, if I bought a Pentax HD D-FA (FF) lens it would certainly work on my film K2 DMD camera body as well, just no AF or Tv-AE. Everyone lost?

Reply
Page <<first <prev 3 of 8 next> last>>
If you want to reply, then register here. Registration is free and your account is created instantly, so you can post right away.
Main Photography Discussion
UglyHedgehog.com - Forum
Copyright 2011-2024 Ugly Hedgehog, Inc.