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810 cropping vs teleconverter
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Apr 12, 2017 10:20:43   #
MtnMan Loc: ID
 
redlegfrog wrote:
I was wondering if anyone has tested / compared image's from the 810 cropped to a given size vs. using a teleconverter to achieve the same size?
I use a 1.4 teleconverter often on a D600 and got to thinking if the quality of a cropped image from a large sensor (810) is as good or better than one with a teleconverter used on the same camera, I could then leave one piece of gear at home. And if you're good at reading between the lines, you can see I'm looking for an excuse to buy an 810!

Thanks,
I was wondering if anyone has tested / compared im... (show quote)


If money is any consideration based on Steve's results (in the embedded video, not the article directly) your best choice might be a refurb D5300. It is about the same price as the Nikon teleconverter.

It has other advantages as well. 😃

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Apr 12, 2017 10:21:30   #
Mark W Loc: Camden, Maine
 
Thanks for posting that article....learned something...excellent article.
MtnMan wrote:
Thanks!

Some of the detractors below the above post apparantly have low reading comprehension. The article author was quite aware of and clear about the limitations of the test and made no claim of general applicability. He concluded you need to test your combination of camera, lens, and teleconverter.

No one could test all combinations.

I recently found one combination that totally sucks: Nikon D5300, 55-300, and Kenko 1.4. I won't do that again. And based on that result I plan some controlled testing that will likely lead to me offloading that lens, teleconverter, or both. Both focus and chromatic aberration were terrible. (I know the camera is capable due to my results with other lenses and no telecoverter.)
Thanks! br br Some of the detractors below the ab... (show quote)

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Apr 12, 2017 10:41:25   #
oldtigger Loc: Roanoke Virginia-USA
 
The link/video below is worth checking out:
http://backcountrygallery.com/comparison-test-crop-camera-vs-1-4x-teleconverter-full-frame/

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Apr 12, 2017 10:53:27   #
JHC-NOLA Loc: New Orleans
 
I have an 810 but I don't have a teleconverter. I never thought they were worth the expense. However, like others who have responded, I have gotten fantastic results with crops. I use old 55 and 105 mm micro-Nikkors with the 810 and I get fantastic results with crops even at 100%.

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Apr 12, 2017 11:10:01   #
redlegfrog
 
Thanks all for your input, snarky and otherwise. Its all helpful when trying to narrow down choices in equipment.

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Apr 12, 2017 12:08:19   #
amfoto1 Loc: San Jose, Calif. USA
 
The $140 Kenko Pro 300 DGX teleconverter is quite good with many lenses and able to autofocus most. (The Tamron SP 1.4X might be the same TC, relabeled... at a minimum, it's a very similar design. Some Sigma TCs are reportedly pretty good, too. I don't know the details.)

$500 for a Nikon TC-14E III is simply obscene. Do you think it's 3X as good? (Canon's OEM TCs are similarly pricey.)

How well any teleconverter works greatly depends upon what lens you use it with.... Teleconverters always work best with high quality, telephoto primes. Typically they don't work as well with zooms or shorter focal lengths.

See the Nikon teleconverter compatibility charts here:

https://www.nikonians.org/website/var/assets/files/nikonians-teleconverter-compatibility-chart.pdf

And here:

http://www.nikonusa.com/en_INC/IMG/Assets/Common-Assets/Images/Teleconverter-Compatibility/EN_Comp_chart.html

An equivalent cropping of a D810's image would utilize the central, approx. 17x26mm of the sensor. Doing a crop like this, instead of 36MP you'll essentially be using the D810 as an 18.7MP camera... In other words, this crop "throws away" at least 48 or 49% of the image (assuming no additional cropping is done to change the aspect ratio or for any other reason).

In contrast, using a 1.4X teleconverter there will be some degradation of image quality... probably 5 to 10% loss of IQ with a weaker 1.4X TC, but exactly how much greatly depends upon the specific lens the teleconverter is paired up with.... but your images will be the full 36MP the camera is capable of capturing. (A stronger 1.7X or 2X "costs" a lot more loss of IQ.... And forget about 3X teleconverters!)

In small to modest size prints or online display, you probably won't be able to see much or any difference. In general you would get better results using a quality 1.4X teleconverter, than you would cropping the image. But there's variation in quality of TCs themselves and some lenses just don't work well with a teleconverter. So you need to carefully research any specific combination you're considering.

And a longer lens without any TC or cropping - equal in focal length to the TC + lens you're considering - will always be better than either the lens/TC combo or the cropping.

Using a crop camera such as a 20MP D500 or a 24MP D7200 will also always be better than either cropping the FF image an equivalent amount or using a TC. Think of the APS-C DX camera as a "free 1.5X teleconverter"... ("free" in the sense that there's no light loss.... and less IQ loss).

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Apr 12, 2017 16:29:58   #
Hbuk66 Loc: Oswego, NY
 
Can someone tell the metric equivalent of a beejeeber in inches....

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Apr 12, 2017 19:21:31   #
imagemeister Loc: mid east Florida
 
amfoto1 wrote:
The $140 Kenko Pro 300 DGX teleconverter is quite good with many lenses and able to autofocus most. (The Tamron SP 1.4X might be the same TC, relabeled... at a minimum, it's a very similar design. Some Sigma TCs are reportedly pretty good, too. I don't know the details.)

$500 for a Nikon TC-14E III is simply obscene. Do you think it's 3X as good? (Canon's OEM TCs are similarly pricey.)

How well any teleconverter works greatly depends upon what lens you use it with.... Teleconverters always work best with high quality, telephoto primes. Typically they don't work as well with zooms or shorter focal lengths.

See the Nikon teleconverter compatibility charts here:

https://www.nikonians.org/website/var/assets/files/nikonians-teleconverter-compatibility-chart.pdf

And here:

http://www.nikonusa.com/en_INC/IMG/Assets/Common-Assets/Images/Teleconverter-Compatibility/EN_Comp_chart.html

An equivalent cropping of a D810's image would utilize the central, approx. 17x26mm of the sensor. Doing a crop like this, instead of 36MP you'll essentially be using the D810 as an 18.7MP camera... In other words, this crop "throws away" at least 48 or 49% of the image (assuming no additional cropping is done to change the aspect ratio or for any other reason).

In contrast, using a 1.4X teleconverter there will be some degradation of image quality... probably 5 to 10% loss of IQ with a weaker 1.4X TC, but exactly how much greatly depends upon the specific lens the teleconverter is paired up with.... but your images will be the full 36MP the camera is capable of capturing. (A stronger 1.7X or 2X "costs" a lot more loss of IQ.... And forget about 3X teleconverters!)

In small to modest size prints or online display, you probably won't be able to see much or any difference. In general you would get better results using a quality 1.4X teleconverter, than you would cropping the image. But there's variation in quality of TCs themselves and some lenses just don't work well with a teleconverter. So you need to carefully research any specific combination you're considering.

And a longer lens without any TC or cropping - equal in focal length to the TC + lens you're considering - will always be better than either the lens/TC combo or the cropping.

Using a crop camera such as a 20MP D500 or a 24MP D7200 will also always be better than either cropping the FF image an equivalent amount or using a TC. Think of the APS-C DX camera as a "free 1.5X teleconverter"... ("free" in the sense that there's no light loss.... and less IQ loss).
The $140 Kenko Pro 300 DGX teleconverter is quite ... (show quote)


You can use specialized software to replace the "missing" pixels after cropping .........

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Apr 12, 2017 21:54:04   #
jackpi Loc: Southwest Ohio
 
redlegfrog wrote:
I was wondering if anyone has tested / compared image's from the 810 cropped to a given size vs. using a teleconverter to achieve the same size?
I use a 1.4 teleconverter often on a D600 and got to thinking if the quality of a cropped image from a large sensor (810) is as good or better than one with a teleconverter used on the same camera, I could then leave one piece of gear at home. And if you're good at reading between the lines, you can see I'm looking for an excuse to buy an 810!

Thanks,
I was wondering if anyone has tested / compared im... (show quote)

It depends on the lens and on how large you intend to print.

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Apr 12, 2017 23:35:20   #
Steve Perry Loc: Sylvania, Ohio
 
John Howard wrote:
Thanks for posting but I think it an incomplete analysis. Obviously shot a flat, still target from a tripod. Ignores the consequence of loosing a stop with the 1.4 TC and the impact of exposure time and DoF.


Sigh...

You have to scroll down and read the entire article. I point out everything you mention and more.

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Apr 13, 2017 01:05:54   #
pmackd Loc: Alameda CA
 
There's a lot of relevant discussion here but one point left out is this: Instead of putting on a TC that decreases the aperture one stop, and blurs the image somewhat, you could simply stop down that one stop. On some lenses, with cropping, that will improve resolution of fine detail more than the TC can. Was true for me with Nikon's 200-500 at 500mm. Also testing should be done with carefully sharpened images, NOT ones straight out of the camera. Be prepared for surprises.

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Apr 13, 2017 06:05:49   #
joer Loc: Colorado/Illinois
 
pmackd wrote:
testing should be done with carefully sharpened images, NOT ones straight out of the camera. Be prepared for surprises.



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Apr 13, 2017 09:24:42   #
catchlight.. Loc: Wisconsin USA- Halden Norway
 
pmackd wrote:
There's a lot of relevant discussion here but one point left out is this: Instead of putting on a TC that decreases the aperture one stop, and blurs the image somewhat, you could simply stop down that one stop. On some lenses, with cropping, that will improve resolution of fine detail more than the TC can. Was true for me with Nikon's 200-500 at 500mm. Also testing should be done with carefully sharpened images, NOT ones straight out of the camera. Be prepared for surprises.


Moving subjects add a dynamic...shutter speed would be the priority for sharpness...

Finding the "sweet spot" for your lens would be the optimum for resolution...adding an arbitrary stop would most likely degrade the image.

If light is plentiful and things are stationary a TC will degrade an image 10-15% in sharpness/ resolution. (a known factor).

Higher pixel cameras will benefit more from cropping an image over a TC in most cases...

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Apr 13, 2017 11:08:24   #
O2Ra
 
Steve Perry wrote:
I did that exact test on several cameras, including the D810.

http://backcountrygallery.com/use-teleconverter-crop-image/

Spoiler alert - use the TC :)


I have the d810 and also have the 1.4 TCii. I agree with this article it's spot on. So basically decide how your going to use your equipment. In lower light I'd rather have the better autofocus abilities. An out of focus shot is no good at all. I bought the d810 and a used 1.4tc. Now that the 810s prices are getting lower you could do the same and get both for the price of one. With the new replacement coming out that's what I'd do. Or wait and see what Nikon comes out with next, the d820 will have even a better af system and probably higher mp. But with higher mp you'll have to shoot at higher shutter speeds to stop the blurring effects you get from that high mega pixel sensor. It even happens with the d810. A lot of variables to consider. Good luck " 6 of one 1/2 dozen of the other"

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Apr 13, 2017 11:43:32   #
oldtigger Loc: Roanoke Virginia-USA
 
O2Ra wrote:
... with higher mp you'll have to shoot at higher shutter speeds to stop the blurring effects you get from that high mega pixel sensor. It even happens with the d810. ...

You raised a good point which is too often ignored by users who upgrade to higher mpx bodies.
With the old D40/6mpx, i could grab a snapshot at 1/60.
Moving to the D3100/14mpx, i could get a descent shot at 1/125.
When i got the D7100/24mpx, i had to raise it to 1/250.
I expected the D800/36mpx to be the same as the D7100 but it needed 1/500.
Now with the D810/36mpx, i'm not even sure 1/500 is fast enough.

I am less steady and more critical than i used to be, but there is a real difference.
Because of the light loss and need for higher speed shutter, I vote for cropping rather than
using an extender; and if you are going to crop, then
using a high mpx smaller sensor starts to be a reasonable alternative.

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