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When to use Auto ISO
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Apr 8, 2017 13:52:59   #
chaman
 
wingclui44 wrote:
Your eye can not make a judgement to decide what exact ISO value you should use on every shot even a most experience photographer, you still need to use some kind of light meter to get the right value, so manual exposure with auto ISO is the way to go, combining with +/- compensation. My cameras are on this setting all the time except when using external flash then I will set my ISO.


Wrong. Then go to my Flickr page and explain to me how I got the results you see there WITHOU AUTO. Am I a magician? An interdimensional being? Nope. I just tried my best to master the basics. If are unable to do that and need AUTO ISO that is your problem. With that absurd post you have just shown how little you really understand photography. Oh and let me inform you that cameras built in light meters are very efficient these days. Please step out of the cave you live in.

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Apr 8, 2017 13:53:18   #
LoneRangeFinder Loc: Left field
 
Bill_de wrote:
Most of the long posts in the discussion forum are about 90 - 100% too long.

This was refreshing from beginning to end. Thanks!

--

Concur. Too many gasbags and not enough relief....



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Apr 8, 2017 13:55:05   #
chaman
 
gessman wrote:
I'm about to be politically incorrect on several levels so be fair warned. Looks like Chaman has dropped some of his best poop and departed. Pity he didn't take cthahn and a couple others with him. tresap23, here's yesterday's version of this discussion in case you seriously "just can't put it down..." http://www.uglyhedgehog.com/t-452767-1.html. I don't care what anyone says, my old friend sharpshooter may have just shot his sharpest shot.

The biggest hole in Chaman's argument, which otherwise seems pretty sound if you happen to shoot like him and happen to agree with it, which I don't, is that if you tie yourself in a knot with no wiggle room, you'll just hang quicker. Often, we say "bif" like it's one word and means that everything we call "bif" is the same. Let me suggest to you the obvious - all birds fly at varying speeds over varying terrain and in varying light from each other and from themselves in certain situations. To presume that one knows exactly where to set shutter speed in all situations is not a good thing so setting a ridiculously high shutter speed to make sure you get the shot you want can make the difference in getting the shot or not. It obviously depends on what's important. I did note that he said, to paraphrase, when you need to use auto iso, do it. Of course, not doing so means that you may miss your shot and you may not know in advance that you're going to miss it. To presume that you will automatically get thousands more opportunities is also fraught with faulty logic. I can go weeks without seeing a bird where I am and have no vague notion where on this great big globe I might go to get a particular shot of a particular bird, how long I may have to stay there or where else I may have to go for that shot and, and I'm kinda a homebody partially because I have a big medicine box I'm tethered to, well, that and a slew of doctors, plus nice warm food and a soft pillow.

As is graphically suggested below, a lumbering Heron is no match for a Chickadee when it comes to speed and distance traveled and the difference is all but incalculable for an dumb ol' hobbyist like me who hasn't and isn't going to spend a single minute reading about sensors. "I buys my ticket and takes my chances." If Canon, Nikon, et al, can't figure out how a sensor works without me, they're in a bad place. Not normally a nitpicker, I have to say that different birds at different times in different situations present different challenges and nobody, repeat NOBODY, can calculate all the aspects of the exposure triangle and hope to come away with enough shots of a particular situation to make the effort really satisfying. A Heron may fly faster than a Chickadee but man alive, to scale they are at opposite extremes when it comes to what's required to get a shot of each as a bif. You can pan with a Heron but you often can't even see an in-flight Chickadee in its chosen cover environment through your viewfinder, let alone track one, change your settings on the fly, and come away with what you want which, of course, covers Shaman's exception of "when you need to." As sharpshooter said, to come in here and say "NEVER" about anything does all us poor ol' dumb hobbyists such a disservice, especially when your images posted for our viewing pleasure don't seem to show that you have really tested your theory in practice.

Whether the added shots below are quality shots or not is certainly debatable and I wouldn't insist either way. They're probably not some of my best shots but they are nonetheless pretty satisfying to me, a late arrival to shooting bif at 79. The Heron shot is fairly obvious, nice day, frontlit sun, steady background, predictable behavior, and no need to rush. I used a Sony a6000 with an adapter and a Canon 400mm f/5.6L plus a Canon 1.4x II. The Chickadee shot isn't so obvious. It was done under a thick leafy canopy on a bright thinly overcast day with a tree in the distant background, shooting north so no direct light but the light coming through the sparse Locust tree's leaves did offer something a little shy of a perfect background situation. The Chickadees were shot with a Sony a6000, adapted Canon EF70-200mm f/2.8L IS II. Not knowing how fast a shutter speed I needed to catch a fast moving little bird with jerky motions I set 1/4000 (max for the a6000), f/8 to get dof for either side of the birds, and auto iso with a max of 6400 set. I first hooked up a "lightning/motion detector/trigger and even with the sensor aimed at the bird flying in a perpendicular flight pattern with the camera aimed five feet after the sensor, the camera fired too late to catch the bird. The Chickadee shots were still underexposed at that and required that I adjust the Raw exposure and use Topaz DeNoise to calm them down some. I figure that short of catching a bullet piercing a water balloon or a plane hitting the sound barrier there's not much trickier than shooting a Chickadee and still the hit rate isn't good pulling everything out the a6000 had, burst at 11fps. You certainly aren't going to be adjusting any settings on the fly and there may not be all that many chances unless you want to keep coming back or you can "arrange" the situation.

Sorry - I've shown these shots a few times lately and I don't mean to be boring but they demonstrate several points in this discussion as they have in others. I'm not fishing for complimentary comments. What isn't realized by many in this, and other discussions in uhh similar to this, when all the technical stuff starts flying, many of us can be seen nursing a bad case of glazed over eyes, me included. Of course, "it takes all kinds" and is the nature of the beast in forums, but some of you guys who dig all the technical stuff and like bantering about it aren't really contributing that much that's useful to the novice's understanding of anything and it appears that you sure aren't contributing very much to each other's enlightenment when all you do is contradict and argue with each other.
I'm about to be politically incorrect on several l... (show quote)


You write an essay about AUTO ISO and then proceed to "sustain" it with those subpar and mediocre images. Thanks, you have made my argument MUCH stronger. Not even AUTO ISO could save those.

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Apr 8, 2017 13:58:10   #
chaman
 
MikieLBS wrote:
Terrible advice! What planet do you live on? Are you joking? Birds usually fly in stable light? LOL!! Wait until the bird gets get into a better position? HAHAHAHAH!!!! Stick to giving advice for something you know something about or better yet don't give it!


Look at my Flickr page and then re read what you post. I suggest to look in the Bird in Flight album. Again if you want to rely on AUTO ISO, do it. THe IQ will talk for you ( I review them and what do you know? Mediocre. Poor exposures. You know why? The camera decided them for you!) Now if those satisfy your standards, good for you! Some just do not want to learn anything....and that is your right.

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Apr 8, 2017 14:01:16   #
chaman
 
cthahn wrote:
You have to learn this yourself. The photographer should make all the settings, not the camera.


Logical, right? Now try to explain that to the dinosaurs here who think they know how to obtain a decent image.

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Apr 8, 2017 14:04:15   #
chaman
 
CatMarley wrote:
Whatever did you do with film, then? You must have hated having to shoot 36 frames all on "auto" ASA! Before you got that cute little dial, all you could change was the shutter speed and the aperture, the film ASA was on "AUTO". Now the camera will automatically compensate for what were "mistakes" with film, and you are too accomplished a photographer to utilize it? LOL!


Using LOL! at end really does not make your absurd post any better. Now, The film ASA you CHOSE when you bought your film, genius. I dont want to see ANY images you obtained with film, with that fabulous photography knowledge of you they must have been quite a sight.....in not a good way.

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Apr 8, 2017 14:11:45   #
BB4A
 
Lots of lovely advice here, and a great read for those of us who like to see pedants trying to win each other over, by sheer force of their (questionable) logic.

As one of the few people here who actually owns a 7D Mkii, my advice is simple. It's a fine piece of equipment, with a reason for every single function on that dial. After all, Canon stuck so much good stuff in that body, they wouldn't have also added something that wasn't useful, occasionally... The logic of economics would preclude such a step.

You have a camera easily capable of over 200,000 shutter movements... Go waste/practice/play with a few hundred of those, while adjusting the Auto ISO settings. Try and bracket each shot with another setting or two, and then compare them. I believe you may find a valid reason or two (based on your own experience and the feedback presented by other 7D Mkii users), to use that Auto ISO setting. It's also quite possible that you'll find, after this experiment, that those are fairly rare occasions.

Doesn't matter. What is important is that you asked a reasonable question, received some good advice, and then tried out some scenarios for yourself, and also discovered what works for you and why. Armed with this knowledge and actual experience, and hopefully a degree of confidence in your camera, the next time that special scenario arrives for you, you will be able to use the function most useful for the job.

Congratulations, you will be composing art, at the point that the shutter falls.

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Apr 8, 2017 14:12:53   #
CatMarley Loc: North Carolina
 
oldtigger wrote:
That is not always true, this is closer to being correct for digital photographers:
"In photography, exposure is the amount of light per unit area (the image plane illuminance times
the exposure time) reaching a photographic film or electronic image sensor,
as determined by shutter speed, lens aperture and scene luminance."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exposure_(photography)

Once you have chosen shutter and aperture, the only way to optimise exposure
is by modifying the scene luminance with stuff like ND filters or lights.
That is not always true, this is closer to being c... (show quote)


That was true for film where the sensitivity of the medium was a physical property. Not true for digital, where the sensitivity of the medium can be altered electronically. There is a semantic confusion here in that the same word "exposure" or "exposed" is being used both to denote a process and to describe a result. Exposure is the process of allowing light to be recorded on a light sensitive medium, AND to describe the end result in the form of an image. In the latter case, the dialable ISO is an integral element in "exposure"

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Apr 8, 2017 14:35:46   #
JohnKlingel
 
I mainly use Auto ISO for Wildlife Photography and Street Photography where fast reaction is needed and there's variable light. In other words, any photography where you don't have time to adjust exposure settings. I operate under the principal that getting the shot is paramount and worry about ISO later. So I watch the ISO I'm getting and adjust aperture and shutter speed as much as possible for the subject but eventually I'll let the ISO go sky high if I have to for the shot. The max shutter is determined by the anticipated movement of the subject such as a bird in flight or a Bison standing still and aperture is determined by the required depth of field.

I use DxO OpticsPro 11 when I use ISO above 6400 and sometimes I can't recover a decent photo at extreme ISO. Recently, I was photographing Tule Elk after sunset at ISO 28,800 at f5.6 and 1/200 shutter while hand holding. I got the shot but it's soft as the Elk was moving slowly and the noise correction softened the image. But I gave it the old college try even though I knew the light wasn't sufficient.

I occasionally use Auto ISO for landscape photography if I'm hand holding and need to work a scene very quickly. So I might use f16 for depth of field and 1/250 s if the light is good. In that situation, I can go up to ISO 1600 without much concern. You need to determine for your camera where ISO starts to become too obnoxious. With your lens cap on, take a series of photos at different ISO's and post process them.

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Apr 8, 2017 14:36:45   #
oldtigger Loc: Roanoke Virginia-USA
 
CatMarley wrote:
... Not true for digital, where the sensitivity of the medium can be altered electronically. ...

Did you mean to say that the data on the sensor differs relative to ISO level or
did you mean the data in the raw file differs relative to the ISO.
Does ISO modify how the sensor sees or does it only modify the
information the sensor has already collected?
If it changes the sensitivity one could argue for considering ISO as part of an exposure quadrangle,
but if ISO only modifies the data from the sensor then it is
no more a part of the exposure than any other PP you might perform.

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Apr 8, 2017 14:37:53   #
gessman Loc: Colorado
 
chaman wrote:
You write an essay about AUTO ISO and then proceed to "sustain" it with those subpar and mediocre images. Thanks, you have made my argument MUCH stronger. Not even AUTO ISO could save those.


Ah, there you are. I thought you had abandoned the thread as so many often do when someone disagrees with their stilted attitude and opinion. I made no claim as to the quality of my shots so I'll certainly respect your opinion which, of course, puts you in a reciprocal position regarding your zoo safari and doll pictures. You have a lot of very nice shots of a lot of mostly uninteresting and inconsequential subject matter that offers little to no challenge so you're safe in your middle of the road mentality. My Chickadee shots weren't done to demonstrate quality but rather to see what it takes to catch a Chickadee in flight as a one-time only effort. It sure wouldn't be hard to figure out the iso for most of your shots. Why don't you post some Chickadee shots and show me how it's done.

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Apr 8, 2017 14:55:29   #
Bultaco Loc: Aiken, SC
 
chaman wrote:
Wrong. Then go to my Flickr page and explain to me how I got the results you see there WITHOU AUTO. Am I a magician? An interdimensional being? Nope. I just tried my best to master the basics. If are unable to do that and need AUTO ISO that is your problem. With that absurd post you have just shown how little you really understand photography. Oh and let me inform you that cameras built in light meters are very efficient these days. Please step out of the cave you live in.


I looked thru several of you fliker photos. I didn't see one of a Bear, Elk ect running in and out of shadows.

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Apr 8, 2017 15:30:02   #
RRS Loc: Not sure
 
CatMarley wrote:
Whatever did you do with film, then? You must have hated having to shoot 36 frames all on "auto" ASA! Before you got that cute little dial, all you could change was the shutter speed and the aperture, the film ASA was on "AUTO". Now the camera will automatically compensate for what were "mistakes" with film, and you are too accomplished a photographer to utilize it? LOL!


I think you have it wrong. How was a set ASA auto. It never changed, you are right, the only thing that could change was the shutter speed and aperture. Today you set in manual the shutter speed and aperture and "auto" ISO does change. I often wonder what or how the final image will come out when the operator sets up two variables, auto ISO and either shutter or aperture priority. I guess there are a lot of ways to skin the cat and what ever works for each person is fine. Everyone should strive to please themselves.

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Apr 8, 2017 15:47:18   #
RRS Loc: Not sure
 
BB4A wrote:
Lots of lovely advice here, and a great read for those of us who like to see pedants trying to win each other over, by sheer force of their (questionable) logic.

As one of the few people here who actually owns a 7D Mkii, my advice is simple. It's a fine piece of equipment, with a reason for every single function on that dial. After all, Canon stuck so much good stuff in that body, they wouldn't have also added something that wasn't useful, occasionally... The logic of economics would preclude such a step.

You have a camera easily capable of over 200,000 shutter movements... Go waste/practice/play with a few hundred of those, while adjusting the Auto ISO settings. Try and bracket each shot with another setting or two, and then compare them. I believe you may find a valid reason or two (based on your own experience and the feedback presented by other 7D Mkii users), to use that Auto ISO setting. It's also quite possible that you'll find, after this experiment, that those are fairly rare occasions.

Doesn't matter. What is important is that you asked a reasonable question, received some good advice, and then tried out some scenarios for yourself, and also discovered what works for you and why. Armed with this knowledge and actual experience, and hopefully a degree of confidence in your camera, the next time that special scenario arrives for you, you will be able to use the function most useful for the job.

Congratulations, you will be composing art, at the point that the shutter falls.
Lots of lovely advice here, and a great read for t... (show quote)


Congratulations! You are one of the many that own and shoot the 7DMKII, not one of the few! Good choice too.

Reply
Apr 8, 2017 15:55:43   #
rastokirn Loc: Maribor, Slovenia
 
What a disastrous thread! Haters bombing the believers!
If you were a pro, you wouldn't ask this question. But we are photographers - amateurs, so you may think about my advice: when you have time, make manual; if not sure, do on auto; after few beers do auto everything - you might be surprised ;-)

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