marcomarks wrote:
Nefarious once in your last post, but at least three times since this debate began. Putting my words into a definition of you? I'm not defining you other than what you make clear - your read and believe every word of the Bible and you have said in various ways that we who explore outside of it for truth are wrong. If that's not the definition of a mainstream Christian I don't know what is. I have no other way of defining you other than what you bring to this discussion and what you have brought is mainstream beliefs and nothing else.
You say you don't condemn gays for their lifestyle but you say... unless they "live the correct way." While I don't believe homosexual activity is natural because it cannot in any way lead to procreation and survival of any mammal species, it's made obvious repeatedly in the NT that God is most interested in your soul, your intentions toward others, your ability to love, and not your body. BTW, I'm not aware of Jesus ever broaching the subject of homosexuality in the NT at all. If you have knowledge of HIM saying something about it, let me know. I don't want to hear about Paul talking about it, if he did, because he's also the one responsible for Catholic Priests being saddled with the burden of being celibate, not marrying, but still having desire for sexual activity. You may jump on a bungee cord and hit your head to become a paraplegic and God doesn't condemn you to hell fires because of your stupidity that essentially ruins the rest of your life. You may get drunk and wreck your car and cause brain damage to yourself and God doesn't condemn you to hell fires for it. So why would God condemn a homosexual mindset that may not be controllable (most claim that it is not)? For all the talk of gays "changing and becoming heterosexual so they can be a Christian" that I've heard over the years, I've never heard of a "changeover" who actually became heterosexual but more commonly became celibate so as to not be a practicing gay. But the desire to go back to it is likely still there. So why bother changing a lifestyle that doesn't hurt anyone if it's handled with love, and not just for recreation, if they still have t fight the carnal desire for the rest of life anyway? It doesn't make sense because their walk with God is hampered by the carnal desire and they're still labeled as gay even if they aren't practicing that lifestyle. While I'm as hetero as one can be, I believe that gays who love each other and are in a monogamous committed relationship aren't harming anybody any more than a straight couple in a monogamous relationship are harming anybody. The ones God is definitely displeased with are straight men who "emotionally harm" dozens of women sexually every year, leave fatherless children all over the place, promise undying love to women but fake it until they score, engage a woman for marriage to "get" her and then dump her, have affairs that go on for years behind their wive's backs, and other recreational uses of sex for selfish gain. And vice-versa for straight women.
Polygamists who are in a committed and dedicated relationship with several wives are also not harming anybody because the women all know about each other, are friends, many times live in the same household, share family responsibilities, and accept the polygamous lifestyle. Polygamy was acceptable in the OT so it should be acceptable in the NT as well but those who rewrote it to their liking didn't want polygamy acceptable any more because it meant a man's possessions would be distributed among his many wives and offsprings upon his death and the Catholic church wanted his riches, one wife, and much smaller number of children to stay within the church for the church's financial benefit. That is documented and has been known for decades. You probably think the Bible is anti-polygamy but it isn't. Western civilization is doing it's best to suppress it and make it illegal by claiming it displeases God and he condemns them for it but that's not the case. So I don't condemn them or their lifestyle either.
About being judgemental... Yes, the Bible says that but I was not quoting the Bible specifically. Even monotheistic Hinduism says the same thing. So it's a common theme of any religion that has a one God focus where their God is the only one righteous enough and worthy to judge humans. It's also one of those common sense rules of living that you should have built in. Your spirit in communication with God knows it's harmful to another living entity and should not be practiced in your life.
About your Muslim friend. He's wrong. Here's quotes from the Quran itself offered up by a Muslim site I found:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
During his prophetic (NOTICE THE WORD PROPHETIC) mission, Jesus performed many miracles. God tells us that Jesus said:
“I have come to you with a sign from your Lord. I make for you the shape of a bird out of clay, I breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by God’s permission. I heal the blind from birth and the leper. And I bring the dead to life by God’s permission. And I tell you what you eat and what you store in your houses....” (Quran, 3:49)
Muslims believe that Jesus was not crucified. It was the plan of Jesus’ enemies to crucify him, but God saved him and raised him up to Him. And the likeness of Jesus was put over another man. Jesus’ enemies took this man and crucified him, thinking that he was Jesus. God has said:
...They said, “We killed the Messiah Jesus, son of Mary, the messenger of God.” They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but the likeness of him was put on another man (and they killed that man)... (Quran, 4:157)
Neither Muhammad nor Jesus came to change the basic doctrine of the belief in one God, brought by earlier prophets (THUS MUHAMMAD AND JESUS WERE LATER PROPHETS), but rather to confirm and renew it
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So they believe him to have been born of a virgin birth, to be a messenger of God, capable of miracles that no man was capable of, etc. That sounds like a prophet to me and NOT just a teacher.
Nefarious once in your last post, but at least thr... (
show quote)
While what you write does seem to have some validity to it and I do not understand much of what others claim, like the quote that my friend claims that Christ was just a good teacher and not a Prophet. That too is confusing to me. But I will have to take him for what he says because of their actions and not what is written. If they thought he was a Prophet they would have to follow his teaching and become Christians themselves which they obviously are not.
As far as myself goes. I write and tell you that I am not mainstream Christian and that I read many other references and not just the Bible. But I guess I do not know myself or what I read. Next time I am reading one of those other books I will have to tell myself that I am reading the Bible. Just because I read it does not mean that I automatically believe it either.
So they believe him to have been born of a virgin birth, to be a messenger of God, capable of miracles that no man was capable of, etc. That sounds like a prophet to me and NOT just a teacher. Sounds to me like He is more divine that a Prophet to me but I am not saying what I think but what he told me.
You are right about Christ not saying anything about homosexuality because that was not His mission. Christ believed in the OT and even quoted it and God's feeling towards homosexuality are clearly presented there. He never once declared that the OT was wrong. He taught from it, quoted from it. I had a discussion once with some Christians that said they did not believe the OT because it was obsolete and was just a bunch of old stories. I wonder what they say about the book that Christ read from and quoted from. Yet the refused to believe it.
BTW, nefarious is a good term and I will continue to use it when it is appropriate.
As far as what I think of Polygamy you are wrong again. Boy I wish you would stop trying to put words into my brain.
As far as you and Harvey goes, it is: the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Well I am not either of your enemies. I do not think you and Harvey would agree on much.
I will write what I believe and this will be my last comment:
As I have said I believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly and that there are errors in there but that does not negate the whole of the Bible. That could never happen and would be totally stupid on it's premise.
The Bible is necessary because it tells us who God is and without it we have nothing to enjoy, hope for or realize why we are even here.
It tells us that without God we are nothing and we are meaningless, are just matter with none of the emotions like love and charity, compassion, hope, faith etc.
It tells us that God has a purpose, a reason for all that He does. That there is meaning to life itself.
It tells us that God has a structure and established a church, not a building but a church of offices and officers, an organization, such, Prophets, Seventies, Evangelists, Bishops, teachers, priests & etc
.
It teaches that God has power to do what He says He will. But it also teaches us they He will use His power not to give a demonstration for what He is but that He will use if for righteous purposes, only. His power was used to help people and not a demonstration of power.
It teaches us that God is the same today, yesterday, and forever.
It tells us that we are not just physical but that we have two parts to us, physical and spiritual.
It tells us that for us to be truly happy we will have to overcome the physical body and let the spirit rule our souls.
It teaches us that we have a need for an atonement. That we would be lost with out it and we have no way of our spirits overcoming the flesh without the atonement.
It teaches that our lives are not our own but that we are holding to someone else.
It teaches us that Satan is real.
It teaches us that mankind will rebel against righteousness and continue to do wicked things, if a plan was not put into place to correct that.
It teaches us that we cannot believe anything and everything but that we have to be selective in what we accept and the way we live.
It teaches us that life cannot be intellectualized.
It teaches us that there will be consequences for our actions. No, I am not referring to Heaven or Hell.
It teaches us that there is good and bad in this world. There is opposition in all things.
It teaches us that Christ loved His followers.
It teaches us that we must follow Christ in order to receive the fullness.
It teaches us that there is a way to happiness and it is mostly in giving of ourselves.
And there is much more that the Bible teaches us but to get that I guess one just has to read it.