Second shooter---how much to get paid (Page 5): First post on page 2...

tdekany Loc: Oregon

Just Dawn wrote:

I really don't know anything about anything. Honestly, if a pro were to give me the opportunity to work with them and gain some insight and feedback, I would do it absolutely free and be grateful for the experience. I don't know your level of expertise but I am a super novice. So, I guess it would depend on how good you are, how good the primary is and how much you need the exposure and experience. Then again, if you were very experienced, you wouldn't need feedback on this subject.

First post on page 2

Just Dawn Loc: North Carolina

amfoto1 wrote:

I have used second shooters any number of times, have worked as a 2nd for other photographers at times myself, and I have to say.... It really depends.

What's paid varies widely depending upon the type of shoot, the 2nd shooter's experience and skill, and very possibly a lot of other factors.

If I'm shooting an event "on spec", I don't pay any flat fee or hourly wage. I do pass along profits, less a small, per sale "hosting" fee. It works out to about 25% to me, 75% of profits to them.

If it were a wedding instead, for example, I'd pay either a flat amount or an hourly wage. That really depends upon what I'm getting paid for the job and the 2nd shooter's responsibilities and level of experience. It might work out to $10 an hour at least, and might go as high as $20 an hour and possibly more. I would not put it in hourly terms, though... Instead we'd arrive at a set total based upon those so I can treat them as sub-contractors and not have to get into withholding and other complexities that are necessary if I were to hire them as an employee. If the total amount is enough, I still may have to file some tax forms.

I don't ask 2nd shooters to surrender their copyright. I don't want or need it. But I do ask them to license their images to me for resale purposes and with some other limitations... usually for 3 to 5 years with a job shot on spec, or on a more perpetual basis for a shoot like a wedding. This gives me all the usage I need, but still allows them relatively free use the images for other purposes... including portfolio, but also stock sales or other commercial usage if they wish. I always have a model/property release signed by the subjects, which is worded so as to extend to my 2nd shooters as well. My liability insurances also are geared to cover anyone working on my behalf, too.

I always sign an agreement in advance with 2nd shooters, spelling out the license they're giving me, with details of what's expected, how they'll be compensated and with a non-compete clause that essentially says they can't back-door me by selling to the clients directly.

EDIT: Someone else made the point, and I agree, that depending upon the job I might look for more or less experience and skill in a 2nd shooter. A wedding job, for example, is pretty demanding and unforgiving, so I'd want someone who I can trust to do the work, who has some experience and adequate gear. For an event being shot on spec I am more open to working with less experienced people who are "learning on the job". And, for that matter, there might be some work at wedding that can be entrusted to an assistant... not necessarily shooting anything... or maybe only shooting less critical stuff such as candids at a reception.

I have used second shooters any number of times, h... (show quote)

What does "on spec" mean?

Just Dawn Loc: North Carolina

tdekany wrote:

First post on page 2

Oh, sorry. I didn't read the responses at first. Just put in my 2 cents. I read the rest since then though and you're right. That was redundant.

jim quist Loc: Missouri

The books let you see pictures of how really great photographers do their work. Some photographers will show you their images and then give the technical details of how they captured the image

Here are a couple of good one's
Bill Hurter
http://www.barnesandnoble.com/s/bill+hurter_requestid=106800

Scott Kelby
http://www.barnesandnoble.com/s/scott+kelby

The hands on shooting is what you need, I was lucky enough to have a photojournalist who also shot for the AP to take me under his wing and mentor me for a few years, I said yes to every assignment he sent me on.

Here are some ways you can get experience that will help you become a better photographer:

1) Newspaper's sometimes need someone cover a story. the regular photographers will get the interesting stuff and important stories. Some only pay for publishable photos so they aren't out anything if you cant get the image they want.
2) Take a photo class at a college and try to get on to the newspaper or year book staff.
3) Talk to local photographers and see if they offer photo classes to the community, or if they will teach you about photography.
4) cover events in your area and submit photos to area news papers.

two things you should do: get a Business License from your city, and get your Retail Sales License from the State. In MO you can be fined $10,000 if you photograph weddings, etc, and don't have the retail license.

Chefneil wrote:

Dude, how am I supposed to get experience with out... (show quote)

bkyser Loc: Fly over country in Indiana

Well, Chefneil. Sorry you had to go through this.

The responses you received are typical for some forums, and exactly why we made the Wedding Photography section. Blasting someone who is wanting to learn, get started, asking a question, or whatever, is not allowed in that section. You will get constructive criticism, but no personal attacks.

We realize that everyone starts somewhere, and don't try to discourage people from getting into wedding photography.

Yes, we are a merry band of weirdoes that not only love Shooting weddings, but enjoy teaching, and learning from others.

Singing Swan

bkyser wrote:

................. we made the Wedding Photography section.
We realize that everyone starts somewhere, and don't try to discourage people from getting into wedding photography.

Yes, we are a merry band of weirdoes that not only love Shooting weddings, but enjoy teaching, and learning from others.

And I learned enough from the pros on this site and from this section to do a friend's INFORMAL outdoor wedding this past summer and made a whopping fifty dollars from it. I gave them all the photos and they were very happy with them. No, nothing formal, but they got more than they would have had otherwise and I got the experience of working with a nervous bride, uncooperative people and an unfamiliar setting.

Wedding photography is NOT something I want to get into full time, but the advice and knowledge shared in the Wedding Section of this forum will be of great value to you in the long run. I was not ashamed of the work I did for this couple and I owe a lot of that success to the helpful photographers here.

JaiGieEse Loc: Foxworth, MS

bkyser wrote:

Well, Chefneil. Sorry you had to go through this.

And so am I, ChefNeil. Follow this poster's suggestions and get thee to the Wedding Photography section.

And by all means, do not think all of us are like the jerks you've encountered. Par for the course with online forums.

bkyser Loc: Fly over country in Indiana

Singing Swan wrote:

And I learned enough from the pros on this site an... (show quote)

Thanks, and you are correct, it isn't for everyone, but if you are crazy enough, it is absolutely the best feeling in the world to show the images to the couple and have them shed tears of joy. I still get invited fishing, to dinner, and parties of many of my "families"

The key is, love what you are doing, love your subjects as if each couple is your family (the good kind, not the family that drives you nuts) and build those relationships, you can get customers for life. My record is shooting 3 generations of weddings. Grandma, then her daughter, then her granddaugher's weddings. I also did the daughter and granddaughter's senior photos, baby photos, family photos, etc.

aellman Loc: Boston MA

jim quist wrote:

this sounds frivolous until it happens but: br br... (show quote)

That's what insurance is for.

bkyser Loc: Fly over country in Indiana

aellman wrote:

That's what insurance is for.

:thumbup: yes, a necessary evil.

I carry $2million in liability insurance, and also have the business liability through PPA for the off chance (hasn't happened in 30 years) where a bride/groom wants to sue because they didn't like the pictures.

Both insurance policies cover me, and anyone working for me, or on behalf of my company.

Better to have it and not need it.

canon Lee

Chefneil wrote:

Of course I would if they had the skills I required. If they did not, and I understood their ability, and they could do something thing to benefit me Then I would hire them. Maybe, in the future, they could increase the value of my product

You see Chef your opinion is part of your problem, understanding what it takes to be a second shooter. Second shooters need to be as good or even better than the photographer hiring you! The reason you would be hired is not to be trained or given an opportunity, but to add to the photographers success. An inexperienced second shooter would add nothing. A second shooter brings his experience as well as his creative spirit.
As to how you get experience; Get permission from a photographer to "tag along",(free of charge), and if you get a few good ones he would be able to use them. That is how you start out. I would suggest that you learn how to post edit your shots. Critique them and learn why they are not good, then go out and practice practice practice, correcting your shots. When you get to the point that most of them are good, and need very little post editing, then you can ask to get paid.
As to how much to get paid. That is up to the photographer not you.

canon Lee

" Second shooters" are pros. I think you need to understand the difference between a professional photographer, as second shooter, and a photographers assistant. If you want to get into the wedding photography business, you must first start as an assistant, that means you may or may not be permitted to do any shooting at first, but assist as a "go for"! Observe and learn from the pros. You bring nothing to the table! Every profession has journeymen or assistants. From the samples you posted, you definitely qualify as an non-professional! Like any profession you need to earn your way in!
I for one, would never hire as a second shooter, anyone that was "not a professional" with lots of experience.

aellman Loc: Boston MA

Chefneil wrote:

OK, so I'm interested in reaching out and doing some work as a second shooter.

I am not sure how much I should ask for, so I'm putting it out to the pros here on UHH.

Should I go for an hourly wage, for a commission, or a flat rate?

Let the games begin!

I am only echoing what others have said, but there is a typo, misspelling, and/or grammar mistake on pretty much every page of your blog. This destroys your credibility. If you are serious about blogging, double-check every line of text before you publish. If you don't feel qualified, find a friend who is. Best wishes > AL

SharpShooter Loc: NorCal

aellman wrote:

I am only echoing what others have said, but there is a typo, misspelling, and/or grammar mistake on pretty much every page of your blog. This destroys your credibility. If you are serious about blogging, double-check every line of text before you publish. If you don't feel qualified, find a friend who is. Best wishes > AL

aellman, I'm gonna strongly disagree with you! Yes, if your business is literary writing, then yes it should be proof read very carefully, even on a blog.
But I'm gonna disagree, if you're in the business of photography and you are as good as AA and have a blog with some misspellings, nobody is gonna give a rats tail if you are illiterate or literate!! Your work will speak for itself and not one word will be misspelled or misused!
There may be a few that would pick a photographer based on his spelling and not his work, but that would surely be for all the wrong reasons!
What's next, the guy is ugly...., the guy is black?!?!
Ugly????...., few here would have ever gotten a job!!!! :lol:
I am one of those that said the man was not quite ready, but his spelling had nothing to do with assessing his skills.
You're nitpicking, back off! ;-)
SS

BHC Loc: Strawberry Valley, JF, USA

aellman wrote:

I am only echoing what others have said, but there is a typo, misspelling, and/or grammar mistake on pretty much every page of your blog. This destroys your credibility. If you are serious about blogging, double-check every line of text before you publish. If you don't feel qualified, find a friend who is. Best wishes > AL

Ahhhh, another Mr. Perfect joins our ranks. I wondered when we'd find a replacement for JR1. When does the Spelling Stupervisor and Grammar Guru begin the Kourtesy Kop duties. By the way, use of the term "pretty much" is a colloquialism not befitting your level of professionalism.

I find it interesting that one of the most financially successful members of our forum is a person with a grade school education, an individual whose posts are rife with misspellings and grammatical errors. There's also one other thing missing from this person's posts - pretentiousness.