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More on The Subject of Light Meters
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Mar 10, 2012 17:13:44   #
rpavich Loc: West Virginia
 
designpro wrote:
Correct, I think you're missing my point here.
For me, When I calibrate my meter with Lens (a), if I use lens (b) things are slightly off.

That's all. If you are getting better results, Great!

This is a big issue and could go on for weeks...



Yep...nuff said.

Reply
Mar 10, 2012 17:15:19   #
designpro
 
Thank you...

rpavich wrote:
designpro wrote:
Correct, I think you're missing my point here.
For me, When I calibrate my meter with Lens (a), if I use lens (b) things are slightly off.

That's all. If you are getting better results, Great!

This is a big issue and could go on for weeks...



Yep...nuff said.

Reply
Mar 10, 2012 18:21:42   #
designpro
 
A little foot note I would like to add.

As most of you know that's been shooting for some time now, you can set (3) of the exact same identical lens side by side and each one will have its own little sweet spot. It might not be much of a difference but all the same it will vary. The same applies for the same identical camera, light meter or for that matter the same identical car.

Nothing is perfect it seems these days, not even us. We all have our own views and opinions and that's fine.

I share only my personal experience as a photographer and the passion that drives me to continue in this field. Am I perfect, heck no! I am just a man sharing my knowledge with the rest of you.

Some contradict my personal experiences and views with the equipment I use or the experience I have gained using it, that's fine.

Most of what I write about is what I've learned over the years from reading articles and spending countless hours understanding how the heck and why. The subjects I cover have been around long before I was hatched.

It seems that most of you are looking for quick answers to some common questions on the subject of photography and that's what this forum is all about. Me personally, I prefer to keep it professional with a little added humor. Just want to help cut through the bull if I can...

Reply
 
 
Mar 10, 2012 18:23:07   #
rpavich Loc: West Virginia
 
designpro wrote:
A little foot note I would like to add.

As most of you know that's been shooting for some time now, you can set (3) of the exact same identical lens side by side and each one will have its own little sweet spot. It might not be much of a difference but all the same it will vary. The same applies for the same identical camera, light meter or for that matter the same identical car.

Nothing is perfect it seems these days, not even us. We all have our own views and opinions and that's fine.

I share only my personal experience as a photographer and the passion that drives me to continue in this field. Am I perfect, heck no! I am just a man sharing my knowledge with the rest of you.

Some contradict my personal experiences and views with the equipment I use or the experience I have gained using it, that's fine.

Most of what I write about is what I've learned over the years from reading articles and spending countless hours understanding how the heck and why. The subjects I cover have been around long before I was hatched.

It seems that most of you are looking for quick answers to some common questions on the subject of photography and that's what this forum is all about. Me personally, I prefer to keep it professional with a little added humor. Just want to help cut through the bull if I can...
A little foot note I would like to add. br br As ... (show quote)


And we appreciate it immensely! I hope that you didn't take my comments negatively! I really appreciate the instructional things you post...

Reply
Mar 10, 2012 18:28:40   #
designpro
 
Not at all. Just wanted to flex a bit that all!
I get a lot of PMs, and I think most are getting confused.

Most of this is basic stuff to us but others well, I do understand it's hard to take it all in...Been there myself at one time....How about you?


rpavich wrote:
designpro wrote:
A little foot note I would like to add.

As most of you know that's been shooting for some time now, you can set (3) of the exact same identical lens side by side and each one will have its own little sweet spot. It might not be much of a difference but all the same it will vary. The same applies for the same identical camera, light meter or for that matter the same identical car.

Nothing is perfect it seems these days, not even us. We all have our own views and opinions and that's fine.

I share only my personal experience as a photographer and the passion that drives me to continue in this field. Am I perfect, heck no! I am just a man sharing my knowledge with the rest of you.

Some contradict my personal experiences and views with the equipment I use or the experience I have gained using it, that's fine.

Most of what I write about is what I've learned over the years from reading articles and spending countless hours understanding how the heck and why. The subjects I cover have been around long before I was hatched.

It seems that most of you are looking for quick answers to some common questions on the subject of photography and that's what this forum is all about. Me personally, I prefer to keep it professional with a little added humor. Just want to help cut through the bull if I can...
A little foot note I would like to add. br br As ... (show quote)


And we appreciate it immensely! I hope that you didn't take my comments negatively! I really appreciate the instructional things you post...
quote=designpro A little foot note I would like t... (show quote)

Reply
Mar 10, 2012 18:30:31   #
rpavich Loc: West Virginia
 
designpro wrote:
Not at all. Just wanted to flex a bit that all!
I get a lot of PMs, and I think most are getting confused.

Most of this is basic stuff to us but others well, I do understand it's hard to take it all in...Been there myself at one time....How about you?



yep....

Reply
Mar 10, 2012 19:37:09   #
PhotoArtsLA Loc: Boynton Beach
 
Ah, incident metering... I don't think anyone has mentioned using a FLAT diffuser instead of a dome diffuser.

The flat diffuser allows you to actually see what each light source is doing. You still meter at the subject, but you read each light, or group of lights, with true separation from the other lights not possible (except if you know how to block a dome with your hand) generally with dome metering.

If you have calibrated to your camera, you should be able, with incident metering, to determine exactly how the image will look before you press the shutter release.

As to shooting things like pianos... this is a separate issue, about lighting. You could place the sun on a piano, and it's still black (unless it is a white piano.) In lighting a piano, you STILL use incident... LIGHTING. It's usually all about big sheets of gatorfoam. You don't light the piano (except specials for the pianist, the rose, and what not) but you do light the gatorfoam... the piano "sees" the big white incidence, and suddenly, the black piano comes alive with detail in the black and photographs properly. Low, large white ceilings can work wonders too...

I have attached an image I shot demonstrating incident lighting to reveal otherwise detail free shiny black lacquer with a gloss clear coat. The camera shot through a hole in a black foamcore to prevent the front mirror-like gloss surface from showing the camera.

Hasselblad, chrome film, Flextight Precision scan.

Jet Black Piano Like Wooden Plaque. Two lights, Circular Translucent Plastic acting like foamcore, two lights.
Jet Black Piano Like Wooden Plaque. Two lights, Ci...

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Mar 11, 2012 08:21:31   #
Brucej67 Loc: Cary, NC
 
I am not familiar with the Sekonic L-758DR, but I do have a couple of Gossen meeters that can be adjusted if the reading is incorrect, doesn't the Sekonic have an adjustment screw in the back so that you could adjust the setting to match your D7000?

randymoe wrote:
OK I'll bite.

I bought the same Sekonic L-758DR several years ago when I had more cake. I don't use PW's so I wasted money on the radio.

I seldom use it as it disagrees with my D7000 metering. I am also learning to use a Mamiya RB 67 and a couple of 4 x 5's.

I now check the Sekonic spot meter readings with the D7000 and find quite a difference. An unusable difference.

I have taken to shooting a manual D7000 image until I get what I want, as you described. Then I shoot the manual film cameras with the D7000 settings. Good images.

I also have tried reflective metering and found it even worse.

Keep in mind these are studio shots, some existing room lighting and some speed light. I am using multiple manual cameras with different shutters. I find my NOS RB67 shutters to be right on and my 4 x 5 shutter agrees with the RB 67 and D7000.

I have also tried the Sekonic on daylight shooting. Once again not even close.

I just shot 4 rolls of film outside. 4 different ancient cameras. I left the D7000 and Sekonic behind. I used Sunny Sixteen rules and played around.

The Grey Baby 4x4 Rollei with 30 year old Ektachrome 127. Half usable images the rest black with sticky shutter under 1/15.

A Welta (no name) 127 with the same film as above. All usable 4 x 6 images.

A Voigtlander 6 x 9 Bessa with 120 Velvia 50. Great images.

A Voigtlander Perkeo II 6 x 6 Ilford Delta 100. Again exposure success.

Obviously I can shoot in daylight in manual without metering. Most likely since I have done it since the early sixties.

I can shoot my D7000 metered anywhere.

What I cannot do is use the very expensive Sekonic L-758DR in studio or out. I have not given up on it, but am wondering what to do next.

I always set the ISO first.

I may be having sync speed issues with flash. OK.

But why will I also get unusable settings under continuous light?

Thanks for reading all this. I think I have fever brain...




designpro wrote:
Light Meters...

I was viewing an earlier post about light meters and thought I would take it a little deeper for those of you that don't know what a light meter is or how they work. If you're thinking about running out and spending money on something you may or may not need, read my long winded novel on this subject first and then you decide...

Please forgive me if you all find a few type errors, I tend to have a few here and there from time to time but so far everyone figures out what I mean....

Here we go!

Hand-held light meters are not relied on as much as they used to be. Digital photography and the LCD preview monitor on most cameras has made it easy to quickly evaluate the effects of lighting, and changes in lighting, in a scene without the use of an external light meter. However, a light meter can still be a valuable tool for certain types of photography, including studio work with strobes where it can help maintain lighting consistency and aid in determining specific lighting ratios. Even where off-camera metering isn’t technically necessary, some photographers prefer to use a light meter according to their working style.

NOTE:
Something to remember is that the LCD display on your camera previews in most cases, a little brighter than the actual exposure really is and more so on some of the lower end DSLR cameras on the market today. Some of the units will let you adjust the brightness of the display and some don't.

Never rely on the LCD display for your exposure, learn to relay on the cameras histogram reading if it has one. Another point to remember is that the display always previews your image in JPEG format no matter what, even shooting in RAW format!

For those who are unfamiliar with these devices, a light meter (or exposure meter) is a tool used for measuring light and calculating exposure settings for photography. Light meters are very helpful when using cameras that don’t have working exposure meters, in film photography where instant image previews aren’t available, and in studio work, especially where strobe lighting is used.

(Two Types Of Metering)

Light meters usually allow measurements to be taken in two general modes: Reflected Metering and Incident Metering.

Reflected (or Reflective)

This mode of metering is essentially the same as what the camera’s internal light meter does. The light meter measures the light being reflected off the scene or subject from the perspective of the camera. The area being measured can be large which will give you an average reading. By placing the meter closer to smaller areas of the scene, the meter will measure those smaller areas individually giving you similar functionality to a camera’s spot metering.

I personally don’t use an external light meter for reflected metering when shooting with a camera with a built-in meter as I find it redundant.

(Incident)

This mode of metering is not available in the camera. The light meter measures the light that is striking the scene or subject, not the light that is being reflected off the subject. In other words, it measures the light coming from the light source directly.
This is useful for flash/strobe photography. It allows you to measure the light coming from individual light sources, or the combination of more than one light source. When using a light meter in Incident mode, a white dome-like surface covers the meter’s lens. This allows the meter to read light coming in from a wide angle.

The Meter Is Accurate, Not Perfect...

Something to keep in mind is that whether you’re using a hand-held light meter, or relying on the one in your camera, metering does have its limitations. Most importantly, light meters are calibrated to assume they are metering for a standard, middle-of-the-road tone and reflectance, but not all subjects and scenes fit neatly into that category. If your subject is an even gray or something similarly neutral, no problem.

You’ll get a very accurate suggestion for your camera settings. However, if your subject is mostly very dark, or light, the light meter will provide you with exposure settings that will render the blacks as too light, or the whites as too dark, respectively. The light meter should be thought of as an accurate point of reference from which to base your final exposure settings.

(Using A Light Meter)

Of course, you should consult the documentation for your model of light meter to learn how to use it for your needs. But, I’ll give you the general idea here:

As stated earlier, I don’t find much reason to use my light meter for reflected metering. I know some photographers who swear by it for their style of shooting and that's fine, to each his own.

Start by making sure your light meter is set to Reflected metering mode. To get an average measurement for exposure, just stand near the camera and point the light meter’s lens (without the dome cover) toward the scene and click the measuring button. If the scene is not too bright or too dim, the meter will give you a suggested Aperture and/or Shutter Speed setting based on the ISO setting you’ve provided. Of course, you can adjust one or more of the settings up or down to get different corresponding settings for the same exposure. You then just have to adjust your camera settings to match the suggestions provided by the light meter to get the suggested exposure.

Incident light metering, used with flash photography, places the meter not at the location of the camera, but at the location of the subject.

Start by making sure your light meter is set to Incident metering mode. Metering is achieved by placing the light dome cover over the meter’s lens, holding the light meter very near the subject, and pointing it back toward the camera. Clicking the measuring button will tell the meter to wait for a flash of light, which it will measure when you set off the strobe(s). What you’re attempting to measure is the light at the point where you’re holding the meter. Depending on where you place your meter, you’re trying to get an idea of how the light is affecting your subject and other areas of the image, including the background.

Assuming a portrait setup with a key light, a fill light, a hair light, and one additional light on the background, an example of using a light meter in the studio might go like this:

(I) The photographer places the meter near the subject’s face, pointing the light dome mostly in the direction of the key light and triggers the flash. The meter reads “8.0? for an ISO of 100 (shutter speed is not really an issue here). However, the photographer wants to use an aperture of f/5.6, so he dials the key light’s power down one stop, takes another reading which does say, “5.6? this time.

(II) Since the photographer is looking for the fill light to be one stop less than the key light, the meter is now aimed toward the fill light when the strobes are fired. The combination of distance from subject to light source, and the power setting on the light source is giving a reading of “4.0? on the meter, which is right on the money. No changes are necessary.

(III) The hair light, which should be a little hotter than the main light is measured next giving a reading of “16? which is three stops higher than the main light. The photographer wants good highlights in the hair, but this is probably too much. The hair light’s power is adjusted down to give a reading of “9? (f/9) on the meter which will give some nice bright highlights in the hair (technically an overexposed area of the image).

(IV) Finally, the photographer holds the meter against the background at an area where the background light strikes the backdrop to take a reading. With any final adjustments, the photographer now knows the relationship between all the lights and and can use this knowledge to avoid spending a lot of time in trial and error testing.

It's like haveing your very own crystal ball predicting the future outcome of the shot, very cool!

You can see how this can be helpful in maintaining a consistent look or quickly achieving a desired lighting ratio. For photographers who need to get their portrait lighting setup quickly, a light meter is indispensable. I should note that some photographers prefer not to point the meter directly at the light source to take measurements, so use whatever method works best for you.

Of course, a light meter isn’t always necessary, even when using strobes on manual settings. My usual setup is so simple and standardized that I usually only need to take a couple of test shots to know I have it all working. But if I am using a different setup, with several lights, and need to maintain a consistent look for several subjects, I’m going to use a light meter every time.

If you're all wondering what light meter I use when I use it, It's the Sekonic Digital Master L-758DR. I like this unit because It can be calibrated and store (3) different lens setups. This unit is a little more complicated to setup when it comes to the calibration part and you will need a firm understanging of how the entire process works. This meter is a little Pricey when you add the calibration target, close to $800.00 or so...

In closing, if you can afford a good light meter, go for it. Just pointing the thing and taking readings will help you understand how ISO, Aperture and Shutter Speeds all work together. Remember, there is only one correct exposure but many different combinations to get there...
Light Meters... br br I was viewing an earlier po... (show quote)
OK I'll bite. br br I bought the same Sekonic L-7... (show quote)

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Mar 11, 2012 08:30:30   #
ronz Loc: Florida
 
The histogram in your camera cannot be relied on to give you 100% accuracy. If you learn to use a lightmeter you will find your photos will make a dramatic change and you will be shooting a lot fewer shots and the exposure will be right on. Sekonic even has a video on the site and it doesn't get much simplier than that. Cameraa are easily fooled even though they have improved dramatically, try a light meter for a few days and you will be amazed......A picture is worth a 1000 words. You won't need to chimp after every shot.

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Mar 11, 2012 08:34:13   #
rpavich Loc: West Virginia
 
ronz wrote:
The histogram in your camera cannot be relied on to give you 100% accuracy. If you learn to use a lightmeter you will find your photos will make a dramatic change and you will be shooting a lot fewer shots and the exposure will be right on. Sekonic even has a video on the site and it doesn't get much simplier than that. Cameraa are easily fooled even though they have improved dramatically, try a light meter for a few days and you will be amazed......A picture is worth a 1000 words. You won't need to chimp after every shot.
The histogram in your camera cannot be relied on t... (show quote)

I don't know anyone who has purchased a light meter for their DSLR, used it for a week or two and has said..."no...it's not a big deal...I'm going back to the in camera meter..." :)

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Mar 11, 2012 08:35:56   #
rpavich Loc: West Virginia
 
Brucej67 wrote:
I am not familiar with the Sekonic L-758DR, but I do have a couple of Gossen meeters that can be adjusted if the reading is incorrect, doesn't the Sekonic have an adjustment screw in the back so that you could adjust the setting to match your D7000?



It does. Sekonic even has software so you can program it to your individual camera using your PC...though it was too complicated for me.

I think at this point, all the leading meters, Sekonic, Gossen, Polaris, have that ability.

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Mar 11, 2012 08:52:21   #
jimberton Loc: Michigan's Upper Peninsula
 
i have an inexpensive sekonic L308-s that i always take with me. not that i use it everytime.........but whenever i am uncomfortable or having a difficult time with the lighting....i use it. i have had it for a year now and it has never let me down. photos taken with it have always been dead on.

it's a smaller meter and i can easily put it in my pocket.

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Mar 11, 2012 08:59:53   #
Brucej67 Loc: Cary, NC
 
At the price of your meter I would take the time to learn how to do this in order to get good use of the meter. My Gossen meters are older than and obviously not as expensive as yours, but were easier to adjust to match my Sony A900 meter. Now when I use them with my film camera or measure incidental lighting I know the reading is accurate.

rpavich wrote:
Brucej67 wrote:
I am not familiar with the Sekonic L-758DR, but I do have a couple of Gossen meeters that can be adjusted if the reading is incorrect, doesn't the Sekonic have an adjustment screw in the back so that you could adjust the setting to match your D7000?



It does. Sekonic even has software so you can program it to your individual camera using your PC...though it was too complicated for me.

I think at this point, all the leading meters, Sekonic, Gossen, Polaris, have that ability.
quote=Brucej67 I am not familiar with the Sekonic... (show quote)

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Mar 11, 2012 09:03:16   #
bookergt Loc: Georgia
 
Quality Light Metric (323) 467-2265
Check refs and mailing address on internet, fast and like the name says, Quality service. Repaired a Luna Pro F the Bogen (Gossen) refused to repair. Turn around time 1 day. Like previously stated hand deld meters can be a great aide but they can also get out of adjustment.

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Mar 11, 2012 09:45:13   #
rambler Loc: Masssachusetts
 
Great info and explanations. I did not realize one had to cover up the dome when facing a flash.

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