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Ethical vs. Artistic Dilemna
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Dec 14, 2013 12:50:50   #
Rbrylawski Loc: Tampa, FL
 
Rocco, I also thank you for being respectful of a private moment. I think as photographers we often "believe" we have the "right" to shoot anything we want or find interesting. Maybe we do, maybe we don't. But when confronted with a private moment, one filled with emotion, I think the "right" thing to do is respect the privacy of the people sharing that moment, by not intruding. I believe one person stated that if you had been hired to photograph the event, you would have been given license to take a picture, but you weren't, so you did the right thing.

Thank you........

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Dec 14, 2013 13:06:31   #
UP-2-IT Loc: RED STICK, LA
 
amehta wrote:
Just to be clear, I wasn't the one who introduce guns in the conversation. And I was having a discussion with Bobbee where I would NOT have taken the picture.

The forum keeps things cleaner by not automatically pasting the entire thread in any reply, but sometimes it makes it difficult to follow what transpired. :-/


I used the "Quote Reply" tab as I was replying to your repost originally made by, I believe, Bobbee.

In a room full of people one doesn't carry on a conversation with the complete room but one person, again that is why I used the "Quote Reply" key. My reply was in no way an attempt to assign the original gun post to you. I was simply stating my feelings about it, and most assuredly not slamming you or you thoughts in any fashion.

Hopefully we all can converse in a normal voice here without arguing or getting disrespectful.

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Dec 14, 2013 13:08:15   #
LiamRowan Loc: Michigan
 
If someone had asked my mother (in the wheelchair) following her husband's casket in Arlington if they could shoot the moment, she would have been horrified. If she had seen the photo being taken she would have been horrified. But is she ever glad now that the photo was taken; she could not express how much it means to her or to the family. Similarly, thinking of the little Vietnamese girl burned with napalm in the Pulitzer winning photo mentioned earlier . . . how could the photographer have done it? That picture has stayed with me for the right reasons the rest of my life. So I think it would have been OK for you to have taken your photo. But I also don't think there is a right and wrong in this situation. You listened to your heart, and IF you erred, you did so out of thoughtfulness and consideration for others. Who could fault that?



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Dec 14, 2013 14:05:44   #
Dlevon Loc: New Jersey
 
rocco_7155 wrote:
So here's the scenario I was faced with a month ago. We had just left the interactive presentation "No Boundaries" at the WWII/D-Day Museum in New Orleans. It is a hugely emotion producing 90 minutes which involves the audience in the sounds, sights, and realities of WWII. The crowd was exiting into the lobby. I turned, camera in hand and ready to see an aged vet, in a wheelchair, sobbing uncontrollably. His similar aged wife and at least 2 other generations of family standing around him trying to console him. I raised my camera, and before I could press the shutter, I was overcome with the feeling that I was truly intruding, and that shooting would be somehow disrespectful. I simply walked over and tearfully said " Thank you, sir" and we left the area. I know that I did what was right for me at the moment, but the question has bothered me since. What would you have done? Thanks for any and all comments.
So here's the scenario I was faced with a month ag... (show quote)


You did the right thing! Photography is not that important in the scheme of life! Even if you were a pro, I'd say the same thing.

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Dec 14, 2013 14:05:44   #
Dlevon Loc: New Jersey
 
rocco_7155 wrote:
So here's the scenario I was faced with a month ago. We had just left the interactive presentation "No Boundaries" at the WWII/D-Day Museum in New Orleans. It is a hugely emotion producing 90 minutes which involves the audience in the sounds, sights, and realities of WWII. The crowd was exiting into the lobby. I turned, camera in hand and ready to see an aged vet, in a wheelchair, sobbing uncontrollably. His similar aged wife and at least 2 other generations of family standing around him trying to console him. I raised my camera, and before I could press the shutter, I was overcome with the feeling that I was truly intruding, and that shooting would be somehow disrespectful. I simply walked over and tearfully said " Thank you, sir" and we left the area. I know that I did what was right for me at the moment, but the question has bothered me since. What would you have done? Thanks for any and all comments.
So here's the scenario I was faced with a month ag... (show quote)


You did the right thing! Photography is not that important in the scheme of life! Even if you were a pro, I'd say the same thing.

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Dec 14, 2013 14:19:19   #
wj cody Loc: springfield illinois
 
okay, it's the old geek who does film.
i think your action was correct. but for a perhaps, different reason. as you were not acting in a professional capacity, then this was the right thing to, or not, do.
as a photojournalist, the job would be to get the photograph, regardless of the situation. ethics being situational, the job comes first. all photojournalists face situations which challenge morality or ethics; usually the photograph gets taken. the job of the photo editor involves sensibilities, so even here, ethics rarely come into play.
sigh, it's a tough and sad (for the most part) world and at the end of the day i'd flip my coin and hope the call is the right one.

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Dec 14, 2013 15:55:28   #
wuzfuzzab Loc: Red Deer, Alberta
 
rocco_7155 wrote:
So here's the scenario I was faced with a month ago. We had just left the interactive presentation "No Boundaries" at the WWII/D-Day Museum in New Orleans. It is a hugely emotion producing 90 minutes which involves the audience in the sounds, sights, and realities of WWII. The crowd was exiting into the lobby. I turned, camera in hand and ready to see an aged vet, in a wheelchair, sobbing uncontrollably. His similar aged wife and at least 2 other generations of family standing around him trying to console him. I raised my camera, and before I could press the shutter, I was overcome with the feeling that I was truly intruding, and that shooting would be somehow disrespectful. I simply walked over and tearfully said " Thank you, sir" and we left the area. I know that I did what was right for me at the moment, but the question has bothered me since. What would you have done? Thanks for any and all comments.
So here's the scenario I was faced with a month ag... (show quote)


Never mind what someone else would have done---you did what was right for you and that is what counts. BTW you also did THE right thing.

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Dec 14, 2013 15:58:19   #
johnske Loc: Townsville
 
rocco_7155 wrote:
So here's the scenario I was faced with a month ago. We had just left the interactive presentation "No Boundaries" at the WWII/D-Day Museum in New Orleans. It is a hugely emotion producing 90 minutes which involves the audience in the sounds, sights, and realities of WWII. The crowd was exiting into the lobby. I turned, camera in hand and ready to see an aged vet, in a wheelchair, sobbing uncontrollably. His similar aged wife and at least 2 other generations of family standing around him trying to console him. I raised my camera, and before I could press the shutter, I was overcome with the feeling that I was truly intruding, and that shooting would be somehow disrespectful. I simply walked over and tearfully said " Thank you, sir" and we left the area. I know that I did what was right for me at the moment, but the question has bothered me since. What would you have done? Thanks for any and all comments.
So here's the scenario I was faced with a month ag... (show quote)


I think it depends on very much context. If the shot only showed the man in the wheelchair sobbing, with perhaps some family members trying to console him included, then yes, that is a private moment and privacy should be respected and maintained.

However, if the shot also included some of the display (photos or statues etc) which very clearly showed the reason for his emotional response, then that is an entirely different scenario. I would then take the shot and review it carefully at some length later, firstly privately - then if in doubt, get some opinions of others with a view to establishing if it met some guidelines for displaying it. Viz: Is the end shot both artistic and respectful?

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Dec 14, 2013 16:05:19   #
sirlensalot Loc: Arizona
 
If you had to stop yourself from taking the shot, you made the right decision. Good for you.

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Dec 14, 2013 16:40:19   #
amehta Loc: Boston
 
johnske wrote:
I think it depends on very much context. If the shot only showed the man in the wheelchair sobbing, with perhaps some family members trying to console him included, then yes, that is a private moment and privacy should be respected and maintained.

However, if the shot also included some of the display (photos or statues etc) which very clearly showed the reason for his emotional response, then that is an entirely different scenario. I would then take the shot and review it carefully at some length later, firstly privately - then if in doubt, get some opinions of others with a view to establishing if it met some guidelines for displaying it. Viz: Is the end shot both artistic and respectful?
I think it depends on very much context. If the sh... (show quote)


How do you see the display changing the "private moment and privacy should be respected and maintained"?

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Dec 14, 2013 17:25:17   #
Sunwriter Loc: High Plains
 
Excellent decision on your part. Ethical, moral, and gracious.

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Dec 14, 2013 18:20:17   #
nafplyr Loc: Chicago
 
As a vet,I would have been thankful that you did not use my grief in any way.
You followed your instincts,and to me anyway it shows a greater measure of you discipline,and instincts than had you just jumped into the moment.
We are here to record special moments for sure,but not at the expense of someone else's dignity.
Thanks for doing the right thing.

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Dec 14, 2013 19:29:03   #
gessman Loc: Colorado
 
rocco_7155 wrote:
So here's the scenario I was faced with a month ago. We had just left the interactive presentation "No Boundaries" at the WWII/D-Day Museum in New Orleans. It is a hugely emotion producing 90 minutes which involves the audience in the sounds, sights, and realities of WWII. The crowd was exiting into the lobby. I turned, camera in hand and ready to see an aged vet, in a wheelchair, sobbing uncontrollably. His similar aged wife and at least 2 other generations of family standing around him trying to console him. I raised my camera, and before I could press the shutter, I was overcome with the feeling that I was truly intruding, and that shooting would be somehow disrespectful. I simply walked over and tearfully said " Thank you, sir" and we left the area. I know that I did what was right for me at the moment, but the question has bothered me since. What would you have done? Thanks for any and all comments.
So here's the scenario I was faced with a month ag... (show quote)


Hey old friend, good to see you. My take on this is if you've been hired to get a collection of emotive shots, then yes. Otherwise, I think the picture would only have enduring merit if it told the complete story irrespective of when or by whom it were viewed well into the future and then only if you were positioned where the background made it clear what the circumstances and situation was to any viewer into eternity.

An old man sitting in a wheelchair crying while surrounded by unidentifiable people with no other particular identifying characteristics as to who, what, when, where, or why would be of little value to anyone other than perhaps the family for whom I think it should have tremendous merit. It would certainly tell a story but what that story was would be lost into the future without careful considerations. I would want it clearly identified that this was a veteran by the presence of parts of his uniform, some medals pinned on his lapel, or whatever, to make sure the image distinguished him from let's say, a draft dodger who'd come there to continue a lifetime of remorse by paying continued homage to those who took his place.

We see repeated instances where the dwindling remaining few of "the greatest generation" are gathered for special occasions and many are shedding more than a few tears and it is no doubt a poignant scene worthy of taking into posterity. If nobody gets those shots, they won't exist as a reminder of what the tail end of what such an atrocity as WWII looks like and how it scarred those who participated in it.

I would have reluctantly shot the image and then hung back and very discretely approached what appeared to be a senior male member of the family who "had it together" to determine the nature of the situation and upon my satisfaction that the situation deserved it, I would have inquired as to whether a copy of the image would be desired by the family to hang side-by-side in the family picture gallery, perhaps after the old dude was gone, along with that nice picture from basic training - you know, the one in the B-15 flight jacket with the white fur collar, and cap or hat that we all had made. :roll:

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Dec 14, 2013 19:41:51   #
0627ramram32 Loc: Orange County, CA, USA
 
Here is, apparently, an opinion that is a minority of one. I would have asked some of the male relatives if the family would like to have a photograph of this intensely moving and meaningful moment. Given a 'No' I'd pass on my way. With a 'yes', I would approach the gentleman and say "Your family would like a photograph to remember this moment; may I, please?" If he concurs, I'd shoot like a crazy man to make sure I got a good image, show a few on the camera, and get as many e-mail addresses as they have time to write. I would print as soon as I could and enclose a thank you note and my warm regards with them.

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Dec 14, 2013 19:50:26   #
gessman Loc: Colorado
 
0627ramram32 wrote:
Here is, apparently, an opinion that is a minority of one. I would have asked some of the male relatives if the family would like to have a photograph of this intensely moving and meaningful moment. Given a 'No' I'd pass on my way. With a 'yes', I would approach the gentleman and say "Your family would like a photograph to remember this moment; may I, please?" If he concurs, I'd shoot like a crazy man to make sure I got a good image, show a few on the camera, and get as many e-mail addresses as they have time to write. I would print as soon as I could and enclose a thank you note and my warm regards with them.
Here is, apparently, an opinion that is a minority... (show quote)


...and a very respectful approach it is that you suggest but, it would interrupt the scene, distract some of the participants, and you would get a posed picture where everyone's tears were wiped dry - another scene altogether and probably not what needed to be depicted. I say this with all due respect.

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