pendennis

The amount of the fine was pulled out of the judges arse. There was absolutely no loss of money by any of the alleged victims. There were no direct, nor indirect damages which could be assessed, since there were no victims. Ergo, any amount would be excessive. The judge admitted he calculated the fine only on what he saw were potential damages.

The so-called bond was based on the assessed fine against Trump. And there are any number of attorneys who've stated that the fine was beyond any reasonable amount, if there were any victims.

I did not state an opinion. The 8th Amendment prohibits unreasonable punishment, including fines. You should go read a book, but you really should pull your skull out of your arse first.

Frank T Loc: New York, NY

What part of It Was Not A Fine, don't you understand?

Effate Loc: El Dorado Hills, Ca.

I believe he was found liable in a civil trial and subjectively had damages assessed. A fine is a punitive remedy in a criminal proceeding.

Kraken Loc: Barry's Bay

When and if the fine gets paid who gets the money?

DennyT Loc: Central Missouri woods

He is just to stubborn to accept the calculation for the fine was just that a calculation ( must have skipped class the day this was discussed)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/02/25/trump-354-million-penalty-judgment/

Triple G

Not "damages" as much as penalties for disgorgement. According to what I've read $1.9 Mil of the total is for fines so I agree those could be lowered under a "proportionality" review of what is cruel and unjust punishment. Cases of penalties for disgorgement under SEC insider trading in criminal cases have been deemed excessive using the "disproportionate" clause. Whether that is applicable in a civil trial remains to be seen and will probably go to SCOTUS.

Effate Loc: El Dorado Hills, Ca.

Honestly I did not red the WAPO analysis of how the judge came to his figures and no nothing about the SEC rules but I don’t think they would apply even if this case fell under the SEC (which I don’t think it does as any of the coverage I have heard placed it under state jurisdiction) as the 2nd Court of Appeals limits disgorgement where there is not an obvious victim.

Nov. ‘23 case: The decision could effectively blunt the SEC’s ability to seek disgorgement for a wide range of alleged regulatory violations that do not result in financial harm to any investors.

In a case with potentially far-reaching implications for the SEC’s enforcement program, the Second Circuit recently held that the SEC is not entitled to disgorgement unless it can show the allegedly defrauded investors suffered pecuniary harm. The case, Securities and Exchange Commission v. Govil,[1] provides important limitations on the SEC’s ability to seek disgorgement, especially in circumstances where the allegedly violative conduct does not result in obvious “victims.” The case provides defense counsel with persuasive authority to oppose an SEC claim for disgorgement absent proof of any harm to investors especially if all the SEC alleges is a benefit to the defendant. The decision could effectively blunt the SEC’s ability to seek disgorgement for a wide range of alleged regulatory violations that do not result in financial harm to any investors.

My concern (not for Trump personally but for disparate treatment and the rule of law) is normally a judge or jury would look first at the liability issue, then actual damages and then punitive damages to send a message to the liable party as well as dissuade others. My concern without an actual party bringing a complaint and stating the fraudulent act damaged me X amount then all the damages are seemingly subjective as it would be impossible to try and guess what a loan rate might have been if the alleged fraud hadn’t been committed and the amount Trump profited and the future worth of that profit, etc. etc. Seems like a whole team of the best C.P.A.s could kick possible scenarios around for months and come up with all kinds of answers. I am not at all sophisticated in these matters but would bet a nice sum of money this Judges ruling will be greatly reduced at best for NY.

wilpharm Loc: Oklahoma

ever heard of a bail bondsman?? educate yourself.. or are youplaying your silly word games

Triple G

I was only using the SEC as a case where disgorgement penalties were reduced in a criminal case to show it has been done; not that the SEC was involved in trump's case. Whether the disgorgement penalties will be lessened for trump depends on if the rules for criminal cases on disgorgement are applicable to civil cases.

I don't factor the "victimless" at all; it's not relevant as the fraud laws are written.

I'd have to see the calculations that determined the amount of disgorgement (i.e. $'s of avoided interest payments plus $'s in avoided insurance premiums over the time period in statute of limitations) to see a concrete self-interest value he received due to the alleged fraud/deceit. There are actuarial models that can be agreed upon for these kinds of calculations. From there, I could make my personal judgment if the penalties are in line or not. There is definite judge discretion allowed in these cases; we'll see if it will be determined to be equitable.

Triple G

There's an entire set of laws that people would consider "victimless" crimes. There doesn't need to be a "harmed individual or group of individuals" as in injury cases with demonstrable damages to file a fraud lawsuit.

DennyT Loc: Central Missouri woods

Bail is for accused criminals to get out jail pending trial .
Bond is amount of money that an organization or government borrows and promises to pay back on an agreed date with an agreed amount of interest.
In this case promises to pay if Appel is lost.

Educate yourself before mouthing off and proving your lack of knowledge. You obviously have access to internet- try using it .

pendennis

Not necessarily. Fines are also assessed in civil liability cases all the time. Traffic fines are civil in nature.

pendennis

Fines are levied in civil cases all the time. Any payment to the government by court action, criminal or civil, is a fine. Simplest example is a fine for speeding, in traffic court.

Effate Loc: El Dorado Hills, Ca.

Don’t know about your jurisdiction but in California we have felonies, misdemeanors and infractions (such as traffic) which are all criminal. If you refused to sign a promise to appear (a ticket) you could be incarcerated. In America, we don’t have debtor’s prison so if it was civil that sanction would not be available. I believe fines are levied in certain civil actions such as code violations (building, nuisance, etc.) but in a civil law suit damages are awarded. Perhaps we are getting caught up in semantics.

Triple G

I believe you're referring to compensatory penalties for damages. There are cases where the penalties are punitive for behaviors or infractions which may be called fines because damages aren't quantifiable.

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/civil-damages.asp