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image or digital art?
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May 18, 2023 10:58:53   #
JohnSwanda Loc: San Francisco
 
Miker999 wrote:
There is a diffrence between Photography and Digital Art. What I cannot understand is that there some incredible Digital Art and those artists (which I am not one) should be proud of their work and call it what it is. It's beyond "Photography"


Digital Art covers more than digital photography. It includes work created entirely on a computer, which is not photography. But a manipulated photograph is still a photograph, and has been since the invention of photography. I am proud of my digital photography, and I call it what it is - photography.

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May 18, 2023 11:06:35   #
BigDaddy Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
 
Longshadow wrote:
Journalism and "general" photography have totally different ideals, requirements, and goals. They cannot be put in the same "bucket".

Yeah, photography is known as all fake, converting 3D objects into 2D objects and manipulating everything in camera and in post. Journalism pretends to represent truth, but seldom does.

So photography is in the fake bucket. Journalism is in the pretend to be real bucket.

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May 18, 2023 11:07:47   #
Sidwalkastronomy Loc: New Jersey Shore
 
I think we all realize the models in magazines ALL have had processing, in old days we called it air brushing.
Is a bird shot on an overcast day improved by making the sky bluer,
Of course it is. I think most photos we see have had some alteration. To the absurd level is cropping now altering the photo and should be disclose and WHY
In a previous post it was mentioned of disclosing if something was altered and who and why when 95%+ have been altered. The artist can do as he/she pleases.

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May 18, 2023 11:14:10   #
Miker999
 
JohnSwanda wrote:
Digital Art covers more than digital photography. It includes work created entirely on a computer, which is not photography. But a manipulated photograph is still a photograph, and has been since the invention of photography. I am proud of my digital photography, and I call it what it is - photography.


I think we need to define "manipulation"
The moment an image is no longer even a remote resemblance of the scene, it's no longer a photograph (But still art). Intense manipulation is a skill and requires "vision" beyond that required in photography.

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May 18, 2023 11:19:12   #
burkphoto Loc: High Point, NC
 
Sidwalkastronomy wrote:
I think we all realize the models in magazines ALL have had processing, in old days we called it air brushing.
Is a bird shot on an overcast day improved by making the sky bluer,
Of course it is. I think most photos we see hVe had some alteration. To the absurd level is cropping now altering the photo and should be disclose and WHY
In a previous post it was mentioned of disclosing if something was altered and who and why when 95%+ have been altered. The artist can do as he/she pleases.
I think we all realize the models in magazines ALL... (show quote)


Cropping and point of view are two ways that photographers constrict interpretation of a scene at an event. What you leave out, or what you leave in, can be crucial to an editorial point of view.

MOMENT is also crucial. If your organization loves a public figure, the images they use from your assignment will show that person smiling, looking confident, looking authoritative, looking effective, looking warm and friendly, etc. Conversely, if the figure is deemed an Undesirable, the moments captured from your assignment will be those that show weakness, stupidity, boredom, angst, worry, shock, disdain...

In short, journalists don't have to edit their images in Photoshop to make a point. They can move around, change lenses, vary perspectives, and wait for a variety of moments. It's what they've always done! Cropping just refines those techniques. Cover one event thoroughly, and you have a file full of visual editorials...

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May 18, 2023 11:22:44   #
JohnSwanda Loc: San Francisco
 
Miker999 wrote:
I think we need to define "manipulation"
The moment an image is no longer even a remote resemblance of the scene, it's no longer a photograph (But still art). Intense manipulation is a skill and requires "vision" beyond that required in photography.


How about all the darkroom manipulation before digital photography came along? Swapping skies, adding or removing objects, composite images all were done in the darkroom, and nobody complained it wasn't photography any more. Who is to decide how much manipulation makes the image not a photograph? In my view, a photograph is an image created by the action of light on a light sensitive material, and any manipulation doesn't change that.

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May 18, 2023 11:27:46   #
BigDaddy Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
 
AzPicLady wrote:
I so totally agree with you, but then I'm from the same background. Those who have never worked in the photojournalist field probably don't understand. I think the issue is the photographer being truthful. I find that when I look at a spectacular shot and think that it was captured as is by the photographer, I immediately want to know how s/he did it, the settings, the perspective, etc. But then I find out it's a composite, and I admit my opinion of the image changes, as well as my opinion of the person posting the image. Now if that person says up front it's a composite (or HDR or whatever other manipulation), then I judge the image on that basis.

Some years back in an art league there was a discussion about a painter. Some claimed that she had downloaded an image from the computer and printed it on canvas, then painted over it and called it an original painting. She claimed she painted it from blank canvas. The harangue over this became a really big deal. I think everyone can understand why. To use someone else's work and call it mine should violate everyone's ethics. Unfortunately, it doesn't.
I so totally agree with you, but then I'm from the... (show quote)


I guess if I used someone else's work in a composite and lie about it saying it was really mine would be wrong. I feel no need to tell anyone that I replaced a sky with another sky that was mine to begin with. Actually, even if I used someone else's sky that was provided to the public for just that purpose would be ok with me.

Recently a guy posted a picture he created of a work of art, using props and 2 real people dressed up like the painting showed. It was really well done, but until he described all the "manipulation" required and posted the original painting did we fully appreciated all the skill required to pull off "his" work of art (pre and post.) Granted, the inspiration was stolen from the original, but that only ADDED to the skill needed to craft the final product. As a photographer/editor I enjoy hearing all about how the final product got there. As a viewer, I'm only interested in the final product, and if I enjoy it or not. My wife for example doesn't care a lick about how a picture was done, and doesn't want to hear about it either.

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May 18, 2023 11:44:04   #
BobHartung Loc: Bettendorf, IA
 
BobSchwabk wrote:
A question for the group.
As I look at on-line posts of images, I see some that obviously been created by adding features that weren’t in the original capture. But with the advent of AI it’s getting harder. With all the editing software out there, many adding features for enhancing an image, I’m curious as to your opinions as to when an image transitions from a photo into the realm of “digital art”. What will be the impact on competitions?


I think we will reach a point where everyone will have to submit a RAW original along with a processed image if entering a competition. Otherwise it does not matter.

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May 18, 2023 11:46:02   #
BigDaddy Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
 
CHG_CANON wrote:
Admits to who? Some internet rando? Unless your eyes are broken, B&W is 'fake' and obvious to all humans.

Admits to all the people that think it's wrong to "manipulate" a photo w/o admitting it up front.
Several of them are participating in this very thread.

I would imagine if one actually had "broken eyes" they might think it was a color photo, and think their broken eyes just can't see color. My self, I always panic when I see a picture of the moon looking like it's about to crash into the earth. Would be nice if everyone would admit they manipulated the moon to look that way.



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May 18, 2023 11:52:34   #
gwilliams6
 
burkphoto wrote:
Cropping and point of view are two ways that photographers constrict interpretation of a scene at an event. What you leave out, or what you leave in, can be crucial to an editorial point of view.

MOMENT is also crucial. If your organization loves a public figure, the images they use from your assignment will show that person smiling, looking confident, looking authoritative, looking effective, looking warm and friendly, etc. Conversely, if the figure is deemed an Undesirable, the moments captured from your assignment will be those that show weakness, stupidity, boredom, angst, worry, shock, disdain...

In short, journalists don't have to edit their images in Photoshop to make a point. They can move around, change lenses, vary perspectives, and wait for a variety of moments. It's what they've always done! Cropping just refines those techniques. Cover one event thoroughly, and you have a file full of visual editorials...
Cropping and point of view are two ways that photo... (show quote)


So True.

1) I once had to photograph G. Gordon Liddy, the Watergate break-in mastermind. I photographed him from this angle and with this lighting to make him seem sinister. But G. Gordon loved the shot, said it made him look strong, go figure . LOL

2) And then this shot of Archbishop Desmond Tutu, a Nobel Peace Prize Laureate for his work against apartheid in South Africa. I so respected him and all he stood for,. I chose this side angle to capture and isolate his and when he raised his arms, I had the expressive and "uplifting shot" I was seeking, which fit the man and his works.

3) Then I was assigned to photograph this legendary Lakota Sioux Medicine Man before he ventured to D.C. to meet the President. So I just concentrated on him deep in thought, with lighting that brought out all the features of his many years . FYI, he is blind.

Photojournalists work hard to be objective, but of course we inject our own selves and our perspective in how we cover any subject

Cheers and best to you.


(Download)


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(Download)

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May 18, 2023 11:58:15   #
BigDaddy Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
 
Sidwalkastronomy wrote:
I think we all realize the models in magazines ALL have had processing, in old days we called it air brushing.
Is a bird shot on an overcast day improved by making the sky bluer,
Of course it is. I think most photos we see have had some alteration. To the absurd level is cropping now altering the photo and should be disclose and WHY
In a previous post it was mentioned of disclosing if something was altered and who and why when 95%+ have been altered. The artist can do as he/she pleases.
I think we all realize the models in magazines ALL... (show quote)

YES!
Everyone should assume a photo has been manipulated. If one wishes to proclaim a photo is SOOC then they must state it upfront, otherwise the assumption will be the photo was skillfully edited into a great final product.

People should NEVER pretend that a photo was created via skillful editing. That is just wrong!
If the camera is responsible for taking a pic, then be a man and admit it.

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May 18, 2023 12:55:21   #
Longshadow Loc: Audubon, PA, United States
 
BigDaddy wrote:
... I feel no need to tell anyone that I replaced a sky with another sky that was mine to begin with. Actually, even if I used someone else's sky that was provided to the public for just that purpose would be ok with me.
...
...


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May 18, 2023 13:01:43   #
Sidwalkastronomy Loc: New Jersey Shore
 
BigDaddy wrote:
YES!
Everyone should assume a photo has been manipulated. If one wishes to proclaim a photo is SOOC then they must state it upfront, otherwise the assumption will be the photo was skillfully edited into a great final product.

People should NEVER pretend that a photo was created via skillful editing. That is just wrong!
If the camera is responsible for taking a pic, then be a man and admit it.


And just who are we admitting it to and for what reason.
This whole thread and having to fess up if the photo was manipulated is ridiculous

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May 18, 2023 13:08:19   #
CHG_CANON Loc: the Windy City
 
Those who can, do.
Those who can't, complain.

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May 18, 2023 15:08:36   #
Fotoartist Loc: Detroit, Michigan
 
14 pages and almost everyone missed the real point about defining photography. Most of this discussion's comments have confused a molehill with a mountain.

Photography in its essence is image making on a light sensitive medium (literally 'drawing with light'). Period. No need to answer if it is art or was it manipulated (the answer is usually yes in both cases). Everybody needs to step back and take stock of their medium. The only issue to debate at this juncture is this: Are computer GENERATED AI images created from literary descriptions to be described as photography. The answer is no because that doesn't seem to fit the essence of the definition. End of argument.

If you really want to enter a tough debate about photography consider what Stereo 3D photography is going through. AI programs can now take a single 2D photo and convert it to 3D amazingly good. So why would anyone use a stereo camera and capture in 3D which is twice as difficult as capturing in 2D, when they can convert 2D to 3D in the computer? Now tell me how we should define Stereo photography after that?

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