Atomic Clocks (Page 2): I find it disappointing that so often reduction or elimination of service is considered "cost control", such as reducing package sizes, miniaturization of...

Richard Engelmann Loc: Boulder, Colorado

BebuLamar wrote:

There are talks about eliminating WWVB radio station that send the signal to your clock to save $27 million a year.

I find it disappointing that so often reduction or elimination of service is considered "cost control", such as reducing package sizes, miniaturization of airplane seats, or eliminating USPS overtime. A lot of people depend on certain services and they should be asked about such proposals without autonomous executive action. If I need to pay more, fine, but don't just wreck the service.

Red6

Richard Engelmann wrote:

I find it disappointing that so often reduction or elimination of service is considered "cost control", such as reducing package sizes, miniaturization of airplane seats, or eliminating USPS overtime. A lot of people depend on certain services and they should be asked about such proposals without autonomous executive action. If I need to pay more, fine, but don't just wreck the service.

Agreed. If 23-27 million were saved in the budget some politician or bureaucrat will be able to brag on how much money he saved.

But, 23-27 million is barely a rounding error in the overall picture, less than a thousandth of a percent in a 6 trillion dollar budget.

twowindsbear

FWIW I caught my clock resetting. Time was flying at the rate of 7.5 seconds to advance the clock 1 minute as it fell back the 23 hours to the new time.

47greyfox Loc: on the edge of the Colorado front range

https://www.kunc.org/news/2019-10-01/how-a-little-known-radio-station-in-fort-collins-might-one-day-save-the-world

Additionally, the $27m number is suspect. In 2019 when elimination of the time standard was first proposed, this article appeared.
http://www.arrl.org/news/nist-fy-2019-budget-would-eliminate-wwv-and-wwvh

elliott937 Loc: St. Louis

Add this to the mix if you like. I not only have three wall clocks that respond to WWV, but I also have seven "radio controlled watches" that also respond to WWV.

And before anyone might ask: why would I have so many watches? Here's a thought. When we took our first cruise, our travel agent told me: women purchase jewelry on the cruise ship, men purchase watches'? Really? Well, I followed that "axiom", and now with each watch I put on, I'm reminded in what part of the world we were visiting when the watch was purchased. A great idea.

BebuLamar

elliott937 wrote:

Are they really suggesting it cost 27 million a year to run WWV? It IS the standard in time control. I live in Missouri, and by having the clocks (and watches) face the West, and reset is very reliable.

But, 27 million to run a radio station?

I don't know but that what they said.

Canisdirus

Huh...all I do is look up.

jerryc41 Loc: Catskill Mts of NY

elliott937 wrote:

Add this to the mix if you like. I not only have... (show quote)

Don't feel bad about your watches. When we were on a cruise in 1969, we stopped at St. Thomas. I saw a (name brand ???) watch for a good price, and I bought it. It still works fine. Ah, got it! Omega. I have over a dozen watches, most of them Timex and Casio. I could never part with a lot of money to have the time on my wrist.

nervous2 Loc: Provo, Utah

If it's light outside, I assume it's daytime; if dark, nighttime. Close enough for most of what I do.

srg

Red6 wrote:

I would be surprised if the costs to maintain the station(s) were that low. These stations are quite complex with atomic clocks along with powerful transmitters covering several frequencies. These systems require lots of attention and maintenance, especially the antenna systems. There are three different operations going on, WWV, WWVH, and WWVB.

WWV covers 2.5, 5, 10, 15, and 20 Mhz. There are transmitters and antennas for each of the frequencies. Since these are low frequencies the antenna systems are very large and require lots of maintenance on a regular basis. This is the main station here in the US. In reality, each transmission frequency could be considered a radio station since each requires it own transmitter and antenna system. A commercial radio station usually has only one frequency which requires only one active transmitter and antenna.

WWVH is a twin of WWV but is located in Hawaii.

WWVB is a very low-frequency transmitter that transmits signals to set your local clocks. It transmits at the low frequency of 60Khz. Again, it has its own transmitter and antenna system.

It had been proposed to defund WWV, WWVH and WWVB in 2019 but that proposal was dropped. If the costs to operate these 11 radio stations was only $23 million that is one of the best deals the government has ever entered. These systems provide not only time but also frequency standards for many other radio systems all over the world. They would be greatly missed in many applications. But many of these operations are now being accomplished through satellites, often GPS satellites. However, many argue that depending on satellite transmissions so vulnerable to jamming or solar weather is a huge risk. The FAA has also rolled the dice on this issue moving much of the air navigation system to satellites with little or no backup.

These actions do save money but at increased risk. Solar flares could take out many of our satellites at any time, and China is boosting its anti-satellite weaponry and jamming capabilities. Without ground stations to back up these services, we could be very vulnerable.

I would be surprised if the costs to maintain the ... (show quote)

But what kind of music do they play?

Sendai5355 Loc: On the banks of the Pedernales River, Texas

Mine changed to CST at around 8:30 pm on Saturday.

fetzler Loc: North West PA

elliott937 wrote:

Are they really suggesting it cost 27 million a year to run WWV? It IS the standard in time control. I live in Missouri, and by having the clocks (and watches) face the West, and reset is very reliable.

But, 27 million to run a radio station?

WWV, WWVH and WWVB (this one sets your radio controlled clock and transmits at 60kHz) are very important scientific stations and do more than set your radio clock. The station reports standard time and corrects for leap seconds as necessary. The stations also serve as frequency standards for equipment calibration. Signals can be use to learn about radio propagation and the state of the ionosphere. The Status of the GPS system is also reported. WWV is a standard for musical pitch too.

gpc

Red6 wrote:

I would be surprised if the costs to maintain the station(s) were that low. These stations are quite complex with atomic clocks along with powerful transmitters covering several frequencies. These systems require lots of attention and maintenance, especially the antenna systems. There are three different operations going on, WWV, WWVH, and WWVB.

WWV covers 2.5, 5, 10, 15, and 20 Mhz. There are transmitters and antennas for each of the frequencies. Since these are low frequencies the antenna systems are very large and require lots of maintenance on a regular basis. This is the main station here in the US. In reality, each transmission frequency could be considered a radio station since each requires it own transmitter and antenna system. A commercial radio station usually has only one frequency which requires only one active transmitter and antenna.

WWVH is a twin of WWV but is located in Hawaii.

WWVB is a very low-frequency transmitter that transmits signals to set your local clocks. It transmits at the low frequency of 60Khz. Again, it has its own transmitter and antenna system.

It had been proposed to defund WWV, WWVH and WWVB in 2019 but that proposal was dropped. If the costs to operate these 11 radio stations was only $23 million that is one of the best deals the government has ever entered. These systems provide not only time but also frequency standards for many other radio systems all over the world. They would be greatly missed in many applications. But many of these operations are now being accomplished through satellites, often GPS satellites. However, many argue that depending on satellite transmissions so vulnerable to jamming or solar weather is a huge risk. The FAA has also rolled the dice on this issue moving much of the air navigation system to satellites with little or no backup.

These actions do save money but at increased risk. Solar flares could take out many of our satellites at any time, and China is boosting its anti-satellite weaponry and jamming capabilities. Without ground stations to back up these services, we could be very vulnerable.

I would be surprised if the costs to maintain the ... (show quote)

When I was in college I had a summer job working in a navy shipyard metrology lab calibrating test equipment. There they had a frequency standard accurate to 2 parts in 10^11. It received a VLF signal, probably from WWVB. I could accept that a frequency standard could be so accurate. What was a mystery was the time-of-day clock. There was an engineer who would stop by periodically to set his Accutron tuning fork wrist watch from this time-of-day clock. How could the clock be set from the precise frequency? Then one day I saw the technicians restart the clock. One stood by the frequency standard, the other by the wall clock saying "I'll clap when the second hand gets to 12".

fhayes Loc: Madison, Tennessee

I worked on a line test board for Pacific Telephone in the late 70s-early 81s and a customer called to state that with his expensive ? watch, the time lady was behind by some ridiculous number of fractions of a second and he was POSITIVE his was correct. I gave my most serious tone and thanked him, I would report it right away...

gpc

fhayes wrote:

I worked on a line test board for Pacific Telephone in the late 70s-early 81s and a customer called to state that with his expensive ? watch, the time lady was behind by some ridiculous number of fractions of a second and he was POSITIVE his was correct. I gave my most serious tone and thanked him, I would report it right away...

Same guy?