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The Student Loan Giveaway is Much Bigger Than You Think
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Sep 20, 2022 18:12:29   #
Triple G
 
The Aardvark Is Ready wrote:
I am always open to being educated. Opinions always change when new information is received. Do you have the title of the topic you posted your perspective on? I don't see anything on this one.


It was sometime ago, but I’ll find it and repost it.

If they were regular loans, I'd agree, but they aren't and I don't. Just as farmers needed relief from a failed tariff program, some students should get some relief from a failed federal loan program.

Mortgage: At closing, you know exactly what you will pay back. Interest is calculated monthly. Extra payments pay down principal.

My Mortgage was $135k for a 30-year loan in 2004. Refinanced once for lower interest rates and terms. We made a couple of lump sum principal payments and the house was paid off in 2021. That's 13 years early.

Student Loan: Interest is compounded daily. Extra payments go toward future payments, not to pay down the principal. If you don’t make a monthly payment because you are paid up in advance, your interest is still calculated daily.
I was told if I made my payments on time (I never missed a single payment nor paid late) loan would be paid off in 20 years. I won’t say the college financial aid rep lied to me. What I will say is she probably didn’t understand it herself.

I was also told about the Public Service Forgiveness. Make 10 years of payments and the rest is paid off. Well, when I applied, I was told my loans weren’t eligible.

I borrowed $45,000 in student loans
First 10 years I paid $275/month = $33,000
Next 15 years I paid $550/month = $99,000
1 final lump sum payment = $16,000
Total $148,000

Mortgage $135k paid off in 17 years for a total of $183,000.
Student Loan $45k paid off in 25 years after making a final $16k payment for a total of $148,000.

Yes, you can say everyone should know better, but chances are you wouldn’t have known any better either.

We are told over and over that your way out of poverty is through education. Yet, the poorest, most vulnerable, first-generation college students are just happy to be living their dream and trying their hardest to escape the cycle of poverty.

What the government should do is take every penny people have paid toward interest and apply it to the principal and preferably stop charging interest. This would probably pay off many loans. At the most, the loans should be set up like a mortgage.

Anyone who reads this and doesn’t understand the system is broken doesn’t want to understand.

https://www.uglyhedgehog.com/user-post-list?page=4&usernum=103522

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Sep 20, 2022 18:29:43   #
jcboy3
 
Penny MG wrote:
That's not smart people.... that's people with no values or morals. Oh yeah....the prime word that fits your description is CROOK.


I absolutely don't care what you think. I'm neither dishonest nor a criminal. I do it by the book. You're problem is, you didn't read the book.

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Sep 20, 2022 18:34:29   #
Harry0 Loc: Gardena, Cal
 
WNYShooter wrote:
https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2022/08/the-student-loan-giveaway-its-much-bigger-than-you-think.html

Wiping out 10k in student debt is not the most expensive part of the Biden student loan program. Most Federal student loans are now eligible for an income based repayment plan, under these plans students pay a small percentage of their “discretionary” income, say 10%, and then after a fixed number of years the debt is wiped off the student’s books. At first glance these plans don’t seem crazy, but as Matt Bruenig points out they create perverse incentives.

Under the Public Service Loan Forgiveness (PSLF) program, law graduates that go on to work in the public sector, which is a lot of them as the public sector employs many lawyers, only have to pay 10 percent of their discretionary income for 10 years in order to have their debt forgiven.

Law schools figured out many years ago that, for a student who is planning to enroll in PSLF upon graduation, prices and debt loads don’t matter. Ten percent of your discretionary income is ten percent of your discretionary income regardless of what the law school charges you and how much debt you nominally have to take on.

Law schools also realized that they could make the deal even sweeter by setting up LRAPs [repayment programs, AT] that give graduates money to cover the the modest repayments required by the PSLF.

The LRAP schemes work as follows:

The school increases their tuition.
The student takes out federal loans to cover the tuition increase.
The school squirrels away the debt-financed tuition increase into an LRAP fund.
The school disburses money from the LRAP fund to cover PSLF repayments.
Did you get that? Here’s a stylized example. Suppose a student will make 150k per year for 10 years working in the public sector. If they have 200k in debt they pay 15k every year to the government for 10 years and then 50k is “forgiven.” But now the law school comes to the student and says ‘heh, I have a deal which will make both of us better off. We are going to raise the price of law school to 400k but don’t worry not only won’t that cost you a penny more than the 15k a year you are already obligated to pay it will actually cost you much less because we will pay your payments of 15k per year!’ This indeed is a great deal for the student who pays nothing and it’s a great deal for the law school which gets 200k more revenue immediately in return for 150k of payments paid out over the following 10 years. Win-win! Except for the taxpayer of course.

But wait there’s more. Student loans can be used not only to pay tuition and fees but also to pay “living expenses.” Thus, under these plans, students have an incentive to take out as big a loan as allowed in excess of tuition and fees because no matter how large the loan the student’s costs are zero! Lyman Stone has a good tweet thread giving many examples of how to game the system such as “Every student should borrow their maximum loan eligibility and then find some way to invest it illegally. My strategy would be: rent a wildly oversized apartment and sublet.” And here is a tweet thread from Michael Feinberg showing how even wealthy parents may be able to game the system.

Furthermore, the new Biden plan makes the income driven repayment schemes even more generous!

The IDR changes are four-fold:

Increase the amount of income not subject to IDR from 150 percent of the federal poverty line to 225 percent of the federal poverty line.
Reduce the interest rate on IDR-enrolled loans to 0 percent.
For undergraduate debt, reduce the IDR rate from 10 percent of income beyond the threshold in (1) to 5 percent of income beyond the threshold in (1).
For IDR-enrolled debts with original loan balances below $12,000, reduce the repayment period from 20 years to 10 years.
Essentially what this means is that every school will now have the possibility of using a law school like program to shift costs onto taxpayers. Thus Bruenig concludes:

…going forward, these new rules could quite radically alter the incentives of colleges and students when it comes to college prices, institutional financial aid, how much debt to take on, and how to approach repayment.

Indeed, these programs are likely to be very expensive and the resulting increase in the price of tuition will lead to calls either to end the program or for price controls on education.
https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/... (show quote)


You forgot the part that the "loan" is a "financial instrument". That bankers, et al may buy, sell whatever. And that ANY "billable' charges thereby will be added to the principle- without your knowledge nor notice. 20% of your loan can be just these additional fees. Plus add a compounded interest rate computed on an annual basis- and you're paying the interest on the interest.

You forgot the part that "discretionary income" means "take home pay". As an employee, I only get 75% of what the Corps tells the Feds my cost is. Of that 75%, I receive @ 65% as "take home pay". Do you really think taking only 10% of THAT from citizens is being too generous?

I believe this is a Good Thing, and it took too long to do.

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Sep 20, 2022 18:38:05   #
Mr. SONY Loc: LI, NY
 
Teachers know going in that teaching pays crap.


Really????
100 to 200 thousand dollars is norm here on Long Island, NY.
A friend's wife just retired this year making over 120 thousand dollars.
11 years ago, my son's teachers in Florida were making 65 to 85 thousand dollars.
A neighbor, a 24-year-old landed himself a teaching job in Massachusetts for 70 thousand dollars.
That's crap?

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Sep 20, 2022 18:55:28   #
Architect1776 Loc: In my mind
 
The Aardvark Is Ready wrote:
Maybe taking those "traditional" jobs as you call them , might not be the way they want to "thrive", but we don't always get what we want. Maybe if they had taken those "traditional" jobs, they may have been able to repay their loans. I don't particularly like working a "traditional" job. But, I don't claim I'm owed $10,000.



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Sep 21, 2022 01:00:40   #
WNYShooter Loc: WNY
 
Harry0 wrote:
You forgot the part that the "loan" is a "financial instrument". That bankers, et al may buy, sell whatever. And that ANY "billable' charges thereby will be added to the principle- without your knowledge nor notice. 20% of your loan can be just these additional fees. Plus add a compounded interest rate computed on an annual basis- and you're paying the interest on the interest.



Student loans are contracts, it's a breach of contract to alter that agreement without acceptance by all parties to said agreement. Lenders can't just add costs and fees without your knowledge or notice after the fact which aren't detailed in the original loan agreement, it would breach the contract.

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Sep 21, 2022 01:52:35   #
WNYShooter Loc: WNY
 
Triple G wrote:


Student Loan: Interest is compounded daily. Extra payments go toward future payments, not to pay down the principal.


Most student loans require that you must specify that the money be applied towards the principal when making extra payments. It will be clearly spelled out in the loan papers you signed......did you even bother to read them????

Triple G wrote:


I was told if I made my payments on time (I never missed a single payment nor paid late) loan would be paid off in 20 years. I won’t say the college financial aid rep lied to me. What I will say is she probably didn’t understand it herself.

I borrowed $45,000 in student loans
First 10 years I paid $275/month = $33,000
Next 15 years I paid $550/month = $99,000
1 final lump sum payment = $16,000
Total $148,000


So you took out a 20Y and paid it over 25Y, and you can't figure out why it cost so much???? Seriously???? BTW, do you understand that your realized APR was over 12% if your numbers are actually true????

Did you do any research at all in regard to the financial decision you were making at the time, did you bother to go speak with a financial advisor (not one associated with the college) before taking on that debt load??????

Triple G wrote:

Yes, you can say everyone should know better, but chances are you wouldn’t have known any better either.

We are told over and over that your way out of poverty is through education. Yet, the poorest, most vulnerable, first-generation college students are just happy to be living their dream and trying their hardest to escape the cycle of poverty.



It is through education--financial education that is, which everyone should be getting in high school. Unfortunately, the majority of our high schools are too busy teaching gender confusion, wokeness, and victimization. Next to communication, math and financial skills are the most important things our kids can ever be taught as they are skills they will need daily throughout their lives.

Triple G wrote:


What the government should do is take every penny people have paid toward interest and apply it to the principal and preferably stop charging interest. This would probably pay off many loans. At the most, the loans should be set up like a mortgage.



What the government should be doing is forcing student loan applicants to first sit down with a neutral financial advisor before taking on any student debt load to make sure they actually understand what they are getting into.


Both of my kids have PhD's, and they both did it with minimal debt--neither the wife nor I would have allowed it. True, we did pay for their undergrad, but we also pushed them to apply for any and all scholarship and grant money they could find. We showed them how to get most of their books at 1/4 of the price. We taught them how to manage and save money. We also pushed both of them to work part time jobs to help. It also helped that they both pursued careers with high compensation. My oldest actually got her first employer to pay off the rest of her student loans (was under $30K) as a signing bonus.

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Sep 21, 2022 03:33:47   #
jcboy3
 
WNYShooter wrote:
What the government should be doing is forcing student loan applicants to first sit down with a neutral financial advisor before taking on any student debt load to make sure they actually understand what they are getting into.


Both of my kids have PhD's, and they both did it with minimal debt--neither the wife nor I would have allowed it. True, we did pay for their undergrad, but we also pushed them to apply for any and all scholarship and grant money they could find. We showed them how to get most of their books at 1/4 of the price. We taught them how to manage and save money. We also pushed both of them to work part time jobs to help. It also helped that they both pursued careers with high compensation. My oldest actually got her first employer to pay off the rest of her student loans (was under $30K) as a signing bonus.
What the government should be doing is forcing stu... (show quote)


So your argument is this:

"I had smart kids, helped them figure out what to do, paid for their undergraduate schooling, and they pursued careers with high compensation and their employers paid off the nearly $30K in student loan debt. Everyone should be just like me."

In case you're wondering, most people are not.

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Sep 21, 2022 05:54:54   #
WNYShooter Loc: WNY
 
jcboy3 wrote:
So your argument is this:

"I had smart kids, helped them figure out what to do, paid for their undergraduate schooling, and they pursued careers with high compensation and their employers paid off the nearly $30K in student loan debt. Everyone should be just like me."

In case you're wondering, most people are not.


No, my argument is that dumb decisions usually have bad outcomes and that you shouldn't expect others to bail you out of bad consequences--which, to your credit, you didn't do--due to your own ignorance or failure to conduct due diligence.

And to your comment "Everyone should be just like me", I say "maybe they should walk in my shoes." I was a homeless drug addict at one point in my life. It took me a long time and a lot of hard work, but I turned it all around thanks to a mentor who woke me up to the fact I could be and do anything I want in life, but I first had to get myself off the street and to the doors of opportunity. The only real obstacle in one's life is in their head.

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Sep 21, 2022 06:42:43   #
Triple G
 
WNYShooter wrote:
What the government should be doing is forcing student loan applicants to first sit down with a neutral financial advisor before taking on any student debt load to make sure they actually understand what they are getting into.


Both of my kids have PhD's, and they both did it with minimal debt--neither the wife nor I would have allowed it. True, we did pay for their undergrad, but we also pushed them to apply for any and all scholarship and grant money they could find. We showed them how to get most of their books at 1/4 of the price. We taught them how to manage and save money. We also pushed both of them to work part time jobs to help. It also helped that they both pursued careers with high compensation. My oldest actually got her first employer to pay off the rest of her student loans (was under $30K) as a signing bonus.
What the government should be doing is forcing stu... (show quote)


Not everyone has parents like you or us-we did the same; two PhDs and an MBA and my own MBA after theirs.

I should have clarified that this was a case study that I shared. Shoulda, woulda, coulda doesn’t solve the underlying problem. Why not a straight forward loan like a mortgage? There are plenty of classes on financial intelligence, but the young think they can put that off until later — I know; I spent 45 years preaching about getting into a 401k plan to employees and heard every excuse in the book. The entire college education system is broken.

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Sep 21, 2022 06:45:38   #
Triple G
 
WNYShooter wrote:
No, my argument is that dumb decisions usually have bad outcomes and that you shouldn't expect others to bail you out of bad consequences--which, to your credit, you didn't do--due to your own ignorance or failure to conduct due diligence.

And to your comment "Everyone should be just like me", I say "maybe they should walk in my shoes." I was a homeless drug addict at one point in my life. It took me a long time and a lot of hard work, but I turned it all around thanks to a mentor who woke me up to the fact I could be and do anything I want in life, but I first had to get myself off the street and to the doors of opportunity. The only real obstacle in one's life is in their head.
No, my argument is that dumb decisions usually hav... (show quote)


You are to be commended and your last sentence is true. Some people don’t even have a mentor.

Either way. It looks like the loan forgiveness is in process. Let’s hope the recipients see it’s a hand up and not viewed as just a handout.

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Sep 21, 2022 09:35:23   #
Penny MG Loc: Fresno, Texas
 
Triple G wrote:
Did you get coerced into a predatory loan that has compounded interest to become a total well beyond reason?


None of those kids were coerced. They took those loans freely. And if by some small chance a handful feels like they were coerced, then they are too stupid to attend college. People need to be responsible for their OWN actions, period.

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Sep 21, 2022 09:38:18   #
Penny MG Loc: Fresno, Texas
 
jcboy3 wrote:
I absolutely don't care what you think. I'm neither dishonest nor a criminal. I do it by the book. You're problem is, you didn't read the book.


I am honest and I don't believe in soaking money from other people that I don't honestly deserve. I work for everything I get in life and expect others to do the same. I don't read books about people who don't take responsibility for their own actions.

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Sep 21, 2022 09:39:54   #
Penny MG Loc: Fresno, Texas
 
Mr. SONY wrote:
Teachers know going in that teaching pays crap.


Really????
100 to 200 thousand dollars is norm here on Long Island, NY.
A friend's wife just retired this year making over 120 thousand dollars.
11 years ago, my son's teachers in Florida were making 65 to 85 thousand dollars.
A neighbor, a 24-year-old landed himself a teaching job in Massachusetts for 70 thousand dollars.
That's crap?


Apparently it is crap because the TEACHERS are still crying they don't get enough pay.

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Sep 21, 2022 09:53:53   #
Triple G
 
Penny MG wrote:
Apparently it is crap because the TEACHERS are still crying they don't get enough pay.


It is not unusual for teachers with 25-30 years reach $100k in affluent school districts and their pensions are enviable, but they are not the norm.

https://www.zippia.com/advice/teacher-salary-by-state/

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