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The Student Loan Giveaway is Much Bigger Than You Think
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Sep 19, 2022 11:53:39   #
WNYShooter Loc: WNY
 
https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2022/08/the-student-loan-giveaway-its-much-bigger-than-you-think.html

Wiping out 10k in student debt is not the most expensive part of the Biden student loan program. Most Federal student loans are now eligible for an income based repayment plan, under these plans students pay a small percentage of their “discretionary” income, say 10%, and then after a fixed number of years the debt is wiped off the student’s books. At first glance these plans don’t seem crazy, but as Matt Bruenig points out they create perverse incentives.

Under the Public Service Loan Forgiveness (PSLF) program, law graduates that go on to work in the public sector, which is a lot of them as the public sector employs many lawyers, only have to pay 10 percent of their discretionary income for 10 years in order to have their debt forgiven.

Law schools figured out many years ago that, for a student who is planning to enroll in PSLF upon graduation, prices and debt loads don’t matter. Ten percent of your discretionary income is ten percent of your discretionary income regardless of what the law school charges you and how much debt you nominally have to take on.

Law schools also realized that they could make the deal even sweeter by setting up LRAPs [repayment programs, AT] that give graduates money to cover the the modest repayments required by the PSLF.

The LRAP schemes work as follows:

The school increases their tuition.
The student takes out federal loans to cover the tuition increase.
The school squirrels away the debt-financed tuition increase into an LRAP fund.
The school disburses money from the LRAP fund to cover PSLF repayments.
Did you get that? Here’s a stylized example. Suppose a student will make 150k per year for 10 years working in the public sector. If they have 200k in debt they pay 15k every year to the government for 10 years and then 50k is “forgiven.” But now the law school comes to the student and says ‘heh, I have a deal which will make both of us better off. We are going to raise the price of law school to 400k but don’t worry not only won’t that cost you a penny more than the 15k a year you are already obligated to pay it will actually cost you much less because we will pay your payments of 15k per year!’ This indeed is a great deal for the student who pays nothing and it’s a great deal for the law school which gets 200k more revenue immediately in return for 150k of payments paid out over the following 10 years. Win-win! Except for the taxpayer of course.

But wait there’s more. Student loans can be used not only to pay tuition and fees but also to pay “living expenses.” Thus, under these plans, students have an incentive to take out as big a loan as allowed in excess of tuition and fees because no matter how large the loan the student’s costs are zero! Lyman Stone has a good tweet thread giving many examples of how to game the system such as “Every student should borrow their maximum loan eligibility and then find some way to invest it illegally. My strategy would be: rent a wildly oversized apartment and sublet.” And here is a tweet thread from Michael Feinberg showing how even wealthy parents may be able to game the system.

Furthermore, the new Biden plan makes the income driven repayment schemes even more generous!

The IDR changes are four-fold:

Increase the amount of income not subject to IDR from 150 percent of the federal poverty line to 225 percent of the federal poverty line.
Reduce the interest rate on IDR-enrolled loans to 0 percent.
For undergraduate debt, reduce the IDR rate from 10 percent of income beyond the threshold in (1) to 5 percent of income beyond the threshold in (1).
For IDR-enrolled debts with original loan balances below $12,000, reduce the repayment period from 20 years to 10 years.
Essentially what this means is that every school will now have the possibility of using a law school like program to shift costs onto taxpayers. Thus Bruenig concludes:

…going forward, these new rules could quite radically alter the incentives of colleges and students when it comes to college prices, institutional financial aid, how much debt to take on, and how to approach repayment.

Indeed, these programs are likely to be very expensive and the resulting increase in the price of tuition will lead to calls either to end the program or for price controls on education.

Reply
Sep 19, 2022 17:47:47   #
jcboy3
 
WNYShooter wrote:
https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2022/08/the-student-loan-giveaway-its-much-bigger-than-you-think.html

Wiping out 10k in student debt is not the most expensive part of the Biden student loan program. Most Federal student loans are now eligible for an income based repayment plan, under these plans students pay a small percentage of their “discretionary” income, say 10%, and then after a fixed number of years the debt is wiped off the student’s books. At first glance these plans don’t seem crazy, but as Matt Bruenig points out they create perverse incentives.

Under the Public Service Loan Forgiveness (PSLF) program, law graduates that go on to work in the public sector, which is a lot of them as the public sector employs many lawyers, only have to pay 10 percent of their discretionary income for 10 years in order to have their debt forgiven.

Law schools figured out many years ago that, for a student who is planning to enroll in PSLF upon graduation, prices and debt loads don’t matter. Ten percent of your discretionary income is ten percent of your discretionary income regardless of what the law school charges you and how much debt you nominally have to take on.

Law schools also realized that they could make the deal even sweeter by setting up LRAPs [repayment programs, AT] that give graduates money to cover the the modest repayments required by the PSLF.

The LRAP schemes work as follows:

The school increases their tuition.
The student takes out federal loans to cover the tuition increase.
The school squirrels away the debt-financed tuition increase into an LRAP fund.
The school disburses money from the LRAP fund to cover PSLF repayments.
Did you get that? Here’s a stylized example. Suppose a student will make 150k per year for 10 years working in the public sector. If they have 200k in debt they pay 15k every year to the government for 10 years and then 50k is “forgiven.” But now the law school comes to the student and says ‘heh, I have a deal which will make both of us better off. We are going to raise the price of law school to 400k but don’t worry not only won’t that cost you a penny more than the 15k a year you are already obligated to pay it will actually cost you much less because we will pay your payments of 15k per year!’ This indeed is a great deal for the student who pays nothing and it’s a great deal for the law school which gets 200k more revenue immediately in return for 150k of payments paid out over the following 10 years. Win-win! Except for the taxpayer of course.

But wait there’s more. Student loans can be used not only to pay tuition and fees but also to pay “living expenses.” Thus, under these plans, students have an incentive to take out as big a loan as allowed in excess of tuition and fees because no matter how large the loan the student’s costs are zero! Lyman Stone has a good tweet thread giving many examples of how to game the system such as “Every student should borrow their maximum loan eligibility and then find some way to invest it illegally. My strategy would be: rent a wildly oversized apartment and sublet.” And here is a tweet thread from Michael Feinberg showing how even wealthy parents may be able to game the system.

Furthermore, the new Biden plan makes the income driven repayment schemes even more generous!

The IDR changes are four-fold:

Increase the amount of income not subject to IDR from 150 percent of the federal poverty line to 225 percent of the federal poverty line.
Reduce the interest rate on IDR-enrolled loans to 0 percent.
For undergraduate debt, reduce the IDR rate from 10 percent of income beyond the threshold in (1) to 5 percent of income beyond the threshold in (1).
For IDR-enrolled debts with original loan balances below $12,000, reduce the repayment period from 20 years to 10 years.
Essentially what this means is that every school will now have the possibility of using a law school like program to shift costs onto taxpayers. Thus Bruenig concludes:

…going forward, these new rules could quite radically alter the incentives of colleges and students when it comes to college prices, institutional financial aid, how much debt to take on, and how to approach repayment.

Indeed, these programs are likely to be very expensive and the resulting increase in the price of tuition will lead to calls either to end the program or for price controls on education.
https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/... (show quote)


Sounds good to me. Students were sold a federally backed bill of goods, and the govmnt owes them relief and an apology.

Reply
Sep 19, 2022 20:04:07   #
Architect1776 Loc: In my mind
 
jcboy3 wrote:
Sounds good to me. Students were sold a federally backed bill of goods, and the govmnt owes them relief and an apology.


The government?
You mean millions of hard working Americans who didn't go to college supporting pukes that got to go who now are bitching about their poor choices.
Why not give all hard working Americans ten thousand including those who worked HARD and paid off their obligations.
Why reward whiny pukes too spoiled to pay off their obligations?

Reply
 
 
Sep 19, 2022 20:59:35   #
The Aardvark Is Ready
 
jcboy3 wrote:
Sounds good to me. Students were sold a federally backed bill of goods, and the govmnt owes them relief and an apology.


Did they sign those papers at gun point?

Reply
Sep 19, 2022 21:00:30   #
jcboy3
 
The Aardvark Is Ready wrote:
Did they sign those papers at gun point?


Yes.

Reply
Sep 19, 2022 21:07:45   #
Architect1776 Loc: In my mind
 
jcboy3 wrote:
Yes.


Prove it.

Reply
Sep 19, 2022 22:02:27   #
jcboy3
 
Architect1776 wrote:
Prove it.


You are somewhat hilarious.

Reply
 
 
Sep 19, 2022 22:15:19   #
WNYShooter Loc: WNY
 
jcboy3 wrote:
Sounds good to me. Students were sold a federally backed bill of goods, and the govmnt owes them relief and an apology.


The schools are the ones who ripped them off, the Schools are the one's who walked away with all of the money.

Reply
Sep 19, 2022 22:22:48   #
jcboy3
 
WNYShooter wrote:
The schools are the ones who ripped them off, the Schools are the one's who walked away with all of the money.


And the govmnt is the one that won't let them off the hook, and won't deal with the schools that ripped them off.

Reply
Sep 20, 2022 05:37:13   #
Architect1776 Loc: In my mind
 
jcboy3 wrote:
And the govmnt is the one that won't let them off the hook, and won't deal with the schools that ripped them off.


They signed up and took the money.
It was not forced upon them.
What happened to working while going to school? Saving money? Working full-time in the summer instead of touring Europe or New Zealand?
Perhaps a bit of struggle and pain to get what one wants.
So sponge off those who did pay their loans, those who never did go to college, or get a worthless degree in photography.

Reply
Sep 20, 2022 06:25:58   #
jcboy3
 
Architect1776 wrote:
They signed up and took the money.
It was not forced upon them.
What happened to working while going to school? Saving money? Working full-time in the summer instead of touring Europe or New Zealand?
Perhaps a bit of struggle and pain to get what one wants.
So sponge off those who did pay their loans, those who never did go to college, or get a worthless degree in photography.


What happened is that state governments stopped supporting state schools like they used to. People were talked into loans they couldn't afford to pay back because the jobs they could get after graduating didn't pay enough to pay off the loans. Financial crises set a lot of people back, but while payments could be deferred, interest accrual was not and a lot of people wound up owing two times or more what they borrowed. And it is practically impossible to get out from under the debt through bankruptcy.

Obviously, you have no sympathy for the younger generation getting screwed over.

I do think that the income limits on this are too high, and the payoff amount is too low. But I also think something needs to be done to fix this, because there are a lot of people that are underwater and sinking rather than swimming.

Reply
 
 
Sep 20, 2022 06:43:07   #
Architect1776 Loc: In my mind
 
jcboy3 wrote:
What happened is that state governments stopped supporting state schools like they used to. People were talked into loans they couldn't afford to pay back because the jobs they could get after graduating didn't pay enough to pay off the loans. Financial crises set a lot of people back, but while payments could be deferred, interest accrual was not and a lot of people wound up owing two times or more what they borrowed. And it is practically impossible to get out from under the debt through bankruptcy.

Obviously, you have no sympathy for the younger generation getting screwed over.

I do think that the income limits on this are too high, and the payoff amount is too low. But I also think something needs to be done to fix this, because there are a lot of people that are underwater and sinking rather than swimming.
What happened is that state governments stopped su... (show quote)


I have NO sympathy.
Most degrees are crap anyway.
Very few jobs actually require a degree.
Teachers know going in that teaching pays crap.
Colleges arbitrarily raise tuition knowing there is easy money.
States know the same so spend money on welfare programs and let the feds give out easy money.
If I were applying for a loan for a house with crap credit and no way to repay I would be denied. Yet teenagers are given up to hundreds of thousands unsecured for worthless degrees. Sounds like all are looking to screw real working Americans for a 4 year party and exotic summer travels.

Reply
Sep 20, 2022 06:45:44   #
WNYShooter Loc: WNY
 
jcboy3 wrote:
And the govmnt is the one that won't let them off the hook, and won't deal with the schools that ripped them off.


Exactly!!! this whole mess began with Prez Johnson and the Dem controlled Congress when they instituted guaranteed student loans via the Higher Education Act of 1965. It became much worse with the Bankruptcy Amendments and Federal Judgeship Act of 1983, and Bankruptcy Abuse Prevention and Consumer Protection Act of 2005. Then Obama put the mess on steroids when he Federalized all student loans to use as a revenue source for his Obamacare. Obama actually had students believing he was on their side all the while his own lawyers were fighting to keep bankruptcy protections from student loans so as to protect his new cash cow. Schools in the meantime just kept jacking up their costs to the max loan limits and sold students on the idea that the amount of their loan doesn't matter. The schools are the real crooks in this mess though.

Reply
Sep 20, 2022 08:37:31   #
Triple G
 
Architect1776 wrote:
They signed up and took the money.
It was not forced upon them.
What happened to working while going to school? Saving money? Working full-time in the summer instead of touring Europe or New Zealand?
Perhaps a bit of struggle and pain to get what one wants.
So sponge off those who did pay their loans, those who never did go to college, or get a worthless degree in photography.


Your avatar should be ancient Archie due to your lack of understanding.

Reply
Sep 20, 2022 11:27:44   #
jcboy3
 
Architect1776 wrote:
I have NO sympathy.
Most degrees are crap anyway.
Very few jobs actually require a degree.
Teachers know going in that teaching pays crap.
Colleges arbitrarily raise tuition knowing there is easy money.
States know the same so spend money on welfare programs and let the feds give out easy money.
If I were applying for a loan for a house with crap credit and no way to repay I would be denied. Yet teenagers are given up to hundreds of thousands unsecured for worthless degrees. Sounds like all are looking to screw real working Americans for a 4 year party and exotic summer travels.
I have NO sympathy. br Most degrees are crap anyw... (show quote)


Sounds good to me. Except I'm on the never-ending party and exotic year-round travel plan.

Smart people know how to get other people to pay for their fun.

Reply
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