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Confederate Soldier in image
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May 15, 2022 18:35:42   #
bbrowner Loc: Chapel Hill, NC
 
Nickaroo wrote:
Stay calm while reading my Comment as I'am not trying to be disrespectful. First and Foremost you let them pick the Photos, well you know how politically correct things are today and every person out there will use it when they choose. If I plan on letting someone pick Photos from my Website, you can bet that I will look over every Shot that I plan on letting them pick some shot that will open the door for someone not wanting a certain pic due to the Fact That They Just Found Religion the Day Before. Don't You Remember all of The Confederate Flag and Statues that have been abolished in D.C. and across the Nation? I would have took that Photo out of my Set of Shots that they planned on looking at, and it would made me look like a Tornado just hit that shot. I'm sorry that you got hurt by what they did to you, but this is on you, not them. The Customer is always right, like it or not. I feel for You and I would save the Photo for myself and put it on my wall behind the Bar in my Man-Cave. Just think that if that Photo wasn't there, this would have been a total success. So You got stung because some idiot actually realized that You Photo could have become a hot potato if it's hanging on the wall and they just want to find something to scream about. These days you have got to look at something and think hard about something going sideways on you. I worked a job where if I did not read the situation in order to react, then it was lights out. I really look at things at a certain way and I accept that every once in awhile I might make a mistake but then I remember that one time where I got bitten, I know how I will be playing the situation. Plus, You have to stay on solid ground and take a punch to the gut. Things are always going to pop up, I was born on a ship when my Parents escaped and Survived the Holocaust and we settled in Queens N.Y. and we stayed there and it was a great life, but at the age of 14, my Father wanted better for Our Family. So, we moved to Michigan so I could plan on College and I did. I learned a lot from Men and My Father's Life on the streets and we really had to move because I was following my Father's Footsteps and he did not want that for me. I wish You All Of The Success That this World has to offer. I know that you are a very good Man. They knock You Down, then You Spring up like a Rocket and punch them in the gut with a Signed Contract and shove it down their throat.
Stay calm while reading my Comment as I'am not try... (show quote)


Hey Nickaroo... how about learning to write using paragraphs.

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May 15, 2022 18:39:07   #
mikeroetex Loc: Lafayette, LA
 
therwol wrote:
I grew up in Alabama in the 60s and left when I was 18 to go to college, though I continued to visit my parents into the 90s when they passed away. I can tell you that for many people I grew up around, Lee's surrender did not reflect a defeat but rather a setback. The Civil War was covered in great detail in American History in high school, more than any other topic. It was taught from a "What if..?" point of view. What if the Confederates had continued on to Washington DC after the first Battle of Bull Run? What if Lee hadn't made that one little mistake at Gettysburg? What if? What if? It's ironic that Lincoln's assassination did as much to harm the South after the war as the war itself. He was publicly in favor of reconciliation, and that isn't what happened.
I grew up in Alabama in the 60s and left when I wa... (show quote)

I too grew up in Ga-Ala in the 60 and early 70’s. I graduated HS in Birmingham in a school of 3200 students, of which approximately 5 were African American.
I went down the road to Alabama for college. I left in 1981 with no opportunity much less desire to return except for family visits. In the 40 years since, I’ve lived all over from Texas to California to Minnesota and here in Louisiana. Friends in San Diego used to laugh when I would return from a family visit, my Southern twang back in full force. I consider my Age of Enlightenment to be my 20’s, living in SoCal where I was exposed to a variety of cultures and people from other states and countries. I feel lucky to have discovered my unconscious biases early and have a lifetime of better values and hopefully behavior since.

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May 15, 2022 19:03:49   #
mikeroetex Loc: Lafayette, LA
 
scubadoc wrote:
Just out of curiosity, how was the history of the Civil War taught when you were in school. I imagine that the dominant position was that it was all about State’s rights and had nothing to do with slavery.

It has been a long time, but we had two history classes. State and American. The state history went back to colonization, as GA was one of the 13. The Civil War focused largely on northern opposition to slavery and Union aggression. Grant and Sherman could have been Darth Vadar and Palpatine, while Lee and Jackson were Obi Wan and Luke Skywalker. The whole war was portrayed as a heroic tragedy against insurmountable odds. They sometimes taught that if Lee had won at Gettysburg, the British were ready to jump in and support the Confederacy to reestablish the supply of cotton to their textile mills. The idea of two countries coexisting was often discussed.

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May 15, 2022 19:19:06   #
scubadoc Loc: Sarasota, FL
 
mikeroetex wrote:
It has been a long time, but we had two history classes. State and American. The state history went back to colonization, as GA was one of the 13. The Civil War focused largely on northern opposition to slavery and Union aggression. Grant and Sherman could have been Darth Vadar and Palpatine, while Lee and Jackson were Obi Wan and Luke Skywalker. The whole war was portrayed as a heroic tragedy against insurmountable odds. They sometimes taught that if Lee had won at Gettysburg, the British were ready to jump in and support the Confederacy to reestablish the supply of cotton to their textile mills. The idea of two countries coexisting was often discussed.
It has been a long time, but we had two history cl... (show quote)


It would be interesting to know how the curriculum has changed since then. Unfortunately, local school boards are being overruled by the legislative and executive branches of many of the Southern states. School libraries are being ordered to remove books that discuss slavery. Students are revolting, demanding that they be allowed to access historically relevant books.

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May 15, 2022 19:26:56   #
Bridges Loc: Memphis, Charleston SC, now Nazareth PA
 
Jklovell wrote:
No, they requested that image. They chose all of the images. I had no say so. And while editing it I kept thinking, is this really okay. Have those I was concerned about really matured that much. Do the administrators know something I don’t. So I looked up the soldier from whose likeness it was made. He served one year in the Confederate Army, got injured, became the sheriff, eventually postmaster, and served in the state legislature. Quite the man. Accomplished more than anyone who might ever complain. That now bothers me. We are all multifaceted. One year in the CSA Army and someone feels like they know better. Yes, that bothers me. No hidden agenda here, Bud.
No, they requested that image. They chose all of t... (show quote)


They may have selected it but at some point someone objected to it and they decided to be politically correct. If the image is as good as you say, and I feel sure it is, then you should proudly hang it in your home, not waste it.

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May 15, 2022 19:40:01   #
E.L.. Shapiro Loc: Ottawa, Ontario Canada
 
gwilliams6 wrote:
As someone who has done this for over 48 years professionally, my best advice to you is get over it, and get over yourself and your hurt feelings. I say that with kindness as if you are in this business long enough, some editor, some CEO, some client will hurt your feelings about your hard work

The customer is always right, even if they change their mind.

As our society is always changing and evolving to be more respectful of ALL its citizens, expect things that were acceptable in the past, to not be acceptable now.

There is no longer a MLB baseball team in Cleveland called the Indians, there is no longer a NFL football team in D.C. called the Redskins . I lived in both those cities and grew up with those teams.

The Confederacy and its symbols bring back the American shame of hundreds of years of brutal slavery, and its root at the cause of a brutal war that almost dissolved our nation over race. The Confederacy is still very painful for millions of Americans.

It is time to heal and to respect all in our multi-racial population. But our race problem still festers and explodes across our nation. The latest news has 10 more dead in a "racial domestic terrorism shooting" (as stated by Police and Government officials) in Buffalo, NY, perpetrated by a man angry at what he saw as "whites being replaced", not my words, but his words in his own manifesto.

Losing one photo out of an exhibit is minor in the life of any photographer. The rest of the shots are still in right ? I am sure when you took the shot you had no other thoughts but to make the best photo you could.

Be happy and proud that your shots will be handsomely displayed . In my career I can't even count all the thousands of my good shots that got edited out as being politically incorrect, inappropriate, insensitive ,sexual suggestive, etc. I have learned to roll with the punches and move on and never stop creating.

I have made and had published countless shots covering NASCAR races and even fashion shoots that included the Confederate flag, and those flags are no longer allowed at NASCAR events, and IMHO that is appropriate for NASCAR which is trying to broaden its appeal to include and respect ALL Americans.

As photographers we create our art, but not everyone is going to ultimately like or agree with our art, even if they seemed to at the beginning.

This will pass as another teaching moment for all of us as photographer.

BTW a shot of mine of a Hispanic-American model taken 13 years ago with a copy of the General Lee and its Confederate Flag on the roof .

FYI, I am African-American, married to a Ukrainian wife with my Ukrainian stepson.

Cheers
As someone who has done this for over 48 years pro... (show quote)


Wise words!

When egos, politics and persona hangups get mixed up with BUSINESS things never end well. it's all in Mr. William's first paragraph, "[quote=gwilliams6]As someone who has done this for over 48 years professionally, my best advice to you is get over it, and get over yourself and your hurt feelings. I say that with kindness as if you are in this business long enough, some editor, some CEO, some client will hurt your feelings about your hard work"

I too have been in the business for a very long time. An important element of professionalism is what is nowadays called "customer care"! Yes, you take care of your customers. Any complaints, objections, issues, or misunderstandings are handled promptly and resolved quickly. Protracted arguments, disputes, court cases, and dealing with lawyers are all unmitigated wastes of time, money, energy and tasks a toll on your mental health, your business, and your creativity. The cost of reshooingt one-shot or remaking a print is negligible when compared to the aforementioned waste of time and money.

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May 15, 2022 20:23:44   #
therwol Loc: USA
 
mikeroetex wrote:
It has been a long time, but we had two history classes. State and American. The state history went back to colonization, as GA was one of the 13. The Civil War focused largely on northern opposition to slavery and Union aggression. Grant and Sherman could have been Darth Vadar and Palpatine, while Lee and Jackson were Obi Wan and Luke Skywalker. The whole war was portrayed as a heroic tragedy against insurmountable odds. They sometimes taught that if Lee had won at Gettysburg, the British were ready to jump in and support the Confederacy to reestablish the supply of cotton to their textile mills. The idea of two countries coexisting was often discussed.
It has been a long time, but we had two history cl... (show quote)


Ditto in Mobile. My high school had 0 blacks at the time I graduated. Forced integration occurred 2 years later. There were school boycotts by whites. All white private school sprang up all over the place. White students refused to use the swimming pool at Murphy high school after blacks swam in it. Whites at the time were mostly Democrats because Lincoln was a Republican. They were called Dixiecrats. There was a wholesale migration to the Republican party after two things. One was the civil rights legislation of Democrat Lyndon Johnson. The other was the failure of George Wallace to gain the presidential nomination as a Democrat.

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May 15, 2022 20:36:49   #
gwilliams6
 
[quote=E.L.. Shapiro]Wise words!

When egos, politics and persona hangups get mixed up with BUSINESS things never end well. it's all in Mr. William's first paragraph, "
gwilliams6 wrote:
As someone who has done this for over 48 years professionally, my best advice to you is get over it, and get over yourself and your hurt feelings. I say that with kindness as if you are in this business long enough, some editor, some CEO, some client will hurt your feelings about your hard work"

I too have been in the business for a very long time. An important element of professionalism is what is nowadays called "customer care"! Yes, you take care of your customers. Any complaints, objections, issues, or misunderstandings are handled promptly and resolved quickly. Protracted arguments, disputes, court cases, and dealing with lawyers are all unmitigated wastes of time, money, energy and tasks a toll on your mental health, your business, and your creativity. The cost of reshooingt one-shot or remaking a print is negligible when compared to the aforementioned waste of time and money.
As someone who has done this for over 48 years pro... (show quote)



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May 16, 2022 00:36:26   #
lamiaceae Loc: San Luis Obispo County, CA
 
mikeroetex wrote:
I too grew up in Ga-Ala in the 60 and early 70’s. I graduated HS in Birmingham in a school of 3200 students, of which approximately 5 were African American.
I went down the road to Alabama for college. I left in 1981 with no opportunity much less desire to return except for family visits. In the 40 years since, I’ve lived all over from Texas to California to Minnesota and here in Louisiana. Friends in San Diego used to laugh when I would return from a family visit, my Southern twang back in full force. I consider my Age of Enlightenment to be my 20’s, living in SoCal where I was exposed to a variety of cultures and people from other states and countries. I feel lucky to have discovered my unconscious biases early and have a lifetime of better values and hopefully behavior since.
I too grew up in Ga-Ala in the 60 and early 70’s. ... (show quote)


Glad you learned acceptance and tolerance or others. I have always lives in California and am used to being around every possible culture. Diversity is the best for humanity as it is for plant and animal life. The more variation the more interesting. Though the tolerance should include those of differing opinions and traditions. Putting one's self in another's shoes is a good thing.

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May 16, 2022 00:51:50   #
lamiaceae Loc: San Luis Obispo County, CA
 
mikeroetex wrote:
It has been a long time, but we had two history classes. State and American. The state history went back to colonization, as GA was one of the 13. The Civil War focused largely on northern opposition to slavery and Union aggression. Grant and Sherman could have been Darth Vadar and Palpatine, while Lee and Jackson were Obi Wan and Luke Skywalker. The whole war was portrayed as a heroic tragedy against insurmountable odds. They sometimes taught that if Lee had won at Gettysburg, the British were ready to jump in and support the Confederacy to reestablish the supply of cotton to their textile mills. The idea of two countries coexisting was often discussed.
It has been a long time, but we had two history cl... (show quote)


I don't really remember if the history in school and college was balanced or propaganda when I took those where I lived in California. But my own opinion today would not be of Lee and Jackson as heros to the cause of righteousness. But I do feel Sherman for what he did to Atlanta, GA might just make him "Darth Sidius (Palpatine)" as you suggested. Grant did seem to be a slob. Actually there were a lot of horrible influential people during the middle to end of the 19th Century. And that includes not only politicians and military leaders but business people, especially railroad business men or crooks.

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May 16, 2022 07:50:12   #
rlv567 Loc: Baguio City, Philippines
 
TriX wrote:
I would just respectfully add, that it seems to have become hurtful only recently. In my city, many things have suddenly become hurtful - street names, shopping center names educational buildings, schools, military bases and of course, statues - anything or person that is remotely linked to slavery/the confederacy generations ago even though it’s been there for a hundred years. We have suddenly become politically ultra correct, are losing our history, and poorer for it in my opinion. Soon, we will remove everything that can possibly offend anyone, and then no one will be offended by anything except those that have watched our history, good or bad, destroyed.

In my city, one of the statues we have left is a Vietnam era soldier carrying a wounded comrade, and that brings back hurtful memories for me whenever I see it, but I don’t want it removed.
I would just respectfully add, that it seems to ha... (show quote)



Absolutely 100% correct. It's just woke, cancel; woke, cancel; woke, cancel - and getting worse and worse. The rationale for cancelling and destroying for thoughts not even spoken 30 years ago lies not in anything even remotely related!!! The herd is fast approaching the cliff!!! - and there will be nothing left.

Loren - in Beautiful Baguio City

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May 16, 2022 07:59:02   #
rlv567 Loc: Baguio City, Philippines
 
Hip Coyote wrote:
My recollection on this was that you are an employee of the hospital and that some admin person saw your photographs in your locker and asked that you take some shots for display in the hospital. On this forum you asked for advice on how to proceed. Some talked about contracts, expectations, reimbursement, ownership of the images, etc. What was finally agreed to? If you have no agreement, then this is, somewhat, a problem of your own making.

What you have here is the outcroppings of, I suspect, a lack of upfront agreement on the display of the images. Because you are an employee of the hospital, you are approaching this without much power in the matter and possibly no legal standing. (Also even if you are legally correct, litigation is expensive, there are no winners and only the attorneys usually come out ahead...I've been there many times in my career.)

In any event, they are the customer (if they paid you..not sure). They can display what they want. If you own the image then you can display it elsewhere and do with it what you want. If they own it, then it is theirs to do with what they want.

Would I get into some draw the line in the sand discussion with hospital staff (your primary employer) about a Confederate Civil War vet? Nope. Images in hospitals are generally benign art to provide a neutral atmosphere for patients and their families. Hospital staff has no time to deal with some easily foreseeable bs that could be created by some oddball complaint that could arise out of this. Takes up way too much time and energy. I say just move on.

FWIIW, before people lose their minds and accuse me of being too sensitive, I agree with your sentiment that the photo is probably interesting and worthy of discussion. The Civil War, in particular, had, on one hand, people who fought for the south, yet later went onto do things on behalf of the Union. I find it fascinating to read, have visited battle sites, grave yards, read multiple books on RE Lee and others. I think the destruction of historical monuments is generally abhorrent. History is hard..and few people take the time to read deeply on the topic. So I am with you in the historical significance of the photo and the person depicted. But not everyone is going to take time to read a narrative as they wait for their xray or get the results of a test, find out about the status of a loved one, make healthcare decisions, etc. Not the place...it is not a museum...it is a hospital. If I were in that hospital, I would find it interesting and probably try to find a book on the subject. But others might not and hospital admin would find itself dealing with that bs controversy instead of health related matters. Does the photo add or detract from the mission of the hospital? If this were a museum or school, it would indeed be my line in the sand. In our world where people read a headline and believe it to be true, there is not a lot of room for intelligent discussion. My recommendation...move on. This is not a windmill I would tilt my lance at.

(It would be interesting to see the photo, btw.)
My recollection on this was that you are an employ... (show quote)



He said - they picked the images; he supplied them, completed --- THEN --- they said they did not want one - that they had chosen!!!!! This is being overlooked by many commenting here.

Loren - in Beautiful Baguio City

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May 16, 2022 08:07:43   #
rlv567 Loc: Baguio City, Philippines
 
bikinkawboy wrote:
History is history. Whether it is good or bad history depends upon the observer. Benedict Arnold was a good example. George Washington is another. To American rebels he was a hero while I’m sure the British considered him a traitor. Vietnam vets are generally seen as good guys in America and most likely the same for those Aussies and Brits that served there as well. To the North Vietnamese and Viet Cong they were invaders. It’s all a matter of perspective.

The white race takes the heat for antebellum slave ownership, but blacks and Cherokee also owned slaves at the same time. And black Africans sold their brethren into slavery. It’s easy to pick and choose from history, which unfortunately is what most people choose to do. But that’s to be expected because most of us don’t want to admit our own failings and it’s far easier (and more satisfying) to blame others for our short comings.
History is history. Whether it is good or bad hist... (show quote)



Absolutely correct - and logical and reasonable. It's unfortunate that so many are blind - or driven by agenda.

Loren - in Beautiful Baguio City

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May 16, 2022 08:10:06   #
rlv567 Loc: Baguio City, Philippines
 
JD750 wrote:
I fully support the artists right to choice, however sorry, politics also has no place in a hospital.

I call for OP to post the image here were we can all enjoy it.



Ah, but there are those on this forum who will say that should not be done, and that the image should be cancelled (destroyed).

Loren - in Beautiful Baguio City

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May 16, 2022 08:11:26   #
rlv567 Loc: Baguio City, Philippines
 
pendennis wrote:
You've expressed very well, the reason(s) why history has to be taken as it happened, and not the placid version folks would like to see/hear/read. It's not, and has never been, crystal clear. As one example, take the misnamed "Civil War" of 1861-1865. It wasn't a "civil war", since the departing Southern states didn't change their forms of government. And neither was it a "war between the states", since Indiana didn't declare war on Texas, and neither did Maine wage war against South Carolina. As clearly as I can understand, it truly was a "war for Southern independence"; not exactly a popular title, but it is factual.
You've expressed very well, the reason(s) why hist... (show quote)



Again, 100% correct!!!

Loren - in Beautiful Baguio City

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