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RAW vs JPEG
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Jun 1, 2021 10:37:51   #
Ysarex Loc: St. Louis
 
larryepage wrote:
The point is that I have never seen any of my images presented in any manner as the washed out green-tinted images that are presented as "unprocessed raw images" here.

If you open a raw file in LR and don't touch a single slider or make any processing selection of any kind the image LR shows you on your display is processed.

If you open a raw file in NX Studio and don't touch a single slider or make any processing selection of any kind the image NX Studio shows you on your display is processed.

One reason you have never seen any of your images presented as washed out and green is addressed in my earlier post: https://www.uglyhedgehog.com/t-698929-4.html#12283857 Did you catch where I said, "It takes special software but if you can open a raw file without processing it in any way it'll look like the first illustration below." You're not using software that will permit you to see unprocessed raw data.

larryepage wrote:
If your raw images look like that, it is because you made them look like that.

In this post in this thread: https://www.uglyhedgehog.com/t-698929-4.html#12283857 I was providing the OP with an explanation to answer the question: "How does a raw converter work?" I also noted about the 4th image in that set (see below), "This is the image you would see without doing any post processing except to set the white balance." That is a default open in the raw converter. It's processed.

When you open a raw file in any raw processing app and you have done absolutely nothing yet but open the image the software app shows you a very processed image on your display.

To display a raw file on your computer LR will first:
Demosaic the raw data.
Set black and white points for the raw data.
Apply a camera input profile to the data.
Set a white balance value for the image.
Apply a tone curve for the image.
Apply lens profile corrections to the image.
Apply input sharpening to the image.
Apply default noise correction to the image.

All of that is processing and it all gets done before you see anything. Otherwise you get shown the embedded JPEG.



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Jun 1, 2021 10:40:50   #
WJShaheen Loc: Gold Canyon, AZ
 
Aldla wrote:
After reading Pauls in camera adjustments I realized things I missed setting up my camera
So even though the subject might be repetitive for some it certainly has helped me
Remember you can always skip over any subject you are tired of reading



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Jun 1, 2021 11:01:41   #
DirtFarmer Loc: Escaped from the NYC area, back to MA
 
UHH is full of photograhers. Some are raw shooters, some are jpg shooters. Each of you has a reason for your choice.

I believe that everyone's reason for their choice is theirs, and fits them. We can extol the advantages of one method or the other, but reasons get tightly ingrained in an individual's actions.

The only unacceptable reason for a position is ignorance. If you have never shot raw and postprocessed the result, try it. You may be unimpressed and thereby have a reason to continue shooting jpg, or if you choose a problematic image you might be impressed at what you can do. If you are a raw shooter and never shoot jpg (on purpose, anyway), try it and see what postprocessing can do.

The reason I am a raw shooter is completely unrelated to the quality of the result. I can produce horrible photos either way. But shooting raw forces me to convert to jpg for utility and my chosen method of conversion is putting the image through Lightroom. If I do not put the image in the Lightroom catalog, it will be lost in a fairly short length of time, given the direction my memory is going. The Lightroom organizational capabilities allow me to find photos from years ago, even photos I've forgotten I took.

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Jun 1, 2021 11:09:24   #
Canisdirus
 
Ysarex wrote:
In this post in this thread: https://www.uglyhedgehog.com/t-698929-4.html#12283857 I was providing the OP with an explanation to answer the question: "How does a raw converter work?" I also noted about the 4th image in that set (see below), "This is the image you would see without doing any post processing except to set the white balance." That is a default open in the raw converter. It's processed.

When you open a raw file in any raw processing app and you have done absolutely nothing yet but open the image the software app shows you a very processed image on your display.

To display a raw file on your computer LR will first:
Demosaic the raw data.
Set black and white points for the raw data.
Apply a camera input profile to the data.
Set a white balance value for the image.
Apply a tone curve for the image.
Apply lens profile corrections to the image.
Apply input sharpening to the image.
Apply default noise correction to the image.

All of that is processing and it all gets done before you see anything. Otherwise you get shown the embedded JPEG.
In this post in this thread: https://www.uglyhedge... (show quote)


You are standing on the head of a pin.
Who cares?
What you are describing is simply what the software needs to do to interpret exactly what the sensor took in the first place (raw).
That's all...
And since it is the same for everyone... it's a big meh.

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Jun 1, 2021 11:18:10   #
larryepage Loc: North Texas area
 
Longshadow wrote:
So many people can't grasp the fact that one cannot "present" a RAW image, let alone unprocessed.

If you see an image on the web, it has been processed into something that web browsers can displey, JPEG, TIFF, ...

If you see a "RAW image", is interpreted.


I've been thinking about this since making my original post on the subject. Every word is true.

The rub, though, is the exact same words are true for JPEG images. Every JPEG file has to be processed before it can be displayed or printed. It has to be decompressed, blocks of pixels reconstructed, printer data protocols construcued, and graphics signals created. The only difference is that JPEG is mostly the same for everybody and the processors are now available just about everywhere (I remember when that wasn't so).. The xame is true if we are talking about TIFF or GIF or any other format you can think of So the argument, while enthusiastic and energetic and emotional, is in reality quite empty. Raw is, in fact, just another file format available to store the information necessary to recreate a two-dimensional image. That's all. Like with many other very useful things, there's absolutely no magic in it.

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Jun 1, 2021 11:22:02   #
burkphoto Loc: High Point, NC
 
Ysarex wrote:
In this post in this thread: https://www.uglyhedgehog.com/t-698929-4.html#12283857 I was providing the OP with an explanation to answer the question: "How does a raw converter work?" I also noted about the 4th image in that set (see below), "This is the image you would see without doing any post processing except to set the white balance." That is a default open in the raw converter. It's processed.

When you open a raw file in any raw processing app and you have done absolutely nothing yet but open the image the software app shows you a very processed image on your display.

To display a raw file on your computer LR will first:
Demosaic the raw data.
Set black and white points for the raw data.
Apply a camera input profile to the data.
Set a white balance value for the image.
Apply a tone curve for the image.
Apply lens profile corrections to the image.
Apply input sharpening to the image.
Apply default noise correction to the image.

All of that is processing and it all gets done before you see anything. Otherwise you get shown the embedded JPEG.
In this post in this thread: https://www.uglyhedge... (show quote)


Excellent explanations!

I'll add that unless you use the manufacturer's proprietary software to open raw files, the image presented on screen will NOT MATCH the JPEG preview or a JPEG created at the camera.

Every third party software developer has to come up with their own camera profiles. They are usually pretty good, but not the same as the manufacturer's "secret sauce" color science.

In reality, though, that's okay, because the whole point of post-processing is to have more control over the end result than you would have had with just the menus in the camera.

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Jun 1, 2021 11:22:05   #
Canisdirus
 
larryepage wrote:
I've been thinking about this since making my original post on the subject. Every word is true.

The rub, though, is the exact same words are true for JPEG images. Every JPEG file has to be processed before it can be displayed or printed. It has to be decompressed, blocks of pixels reconstructed, printer data protocols construcued, and graphics signals created. The only difference is that JPEG is mostly the same for everybody and the processors are now available just about everywhere (I remember when that wasn't so).. The xame is true if we are talking about TIFF or GIF or any other format you can think of So the argument, while enthusiastic and energetic and emotional, is in reality quite empty. Raw is, in fact, just another file format available to store the information necessary to recreate a two-dimensional image. That's all. Like with many other very useful things, there's absolutely no magic in it.
I've been thinking about this since making my orig... (show quote)


Uh huh... and when you take a raw image that is 30MB ... and you also take the same image with JPEG...you get a file 1/10 +/- the size.

You can't put the info back into the JPEG.

There's a big difference.

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Jun 1, 2021 11:27:06   #
burkphoto Loc: High Point, NC
 
larryepage wrote:
I've been thinking about this since making my original post on the subject. Every word is true.

The rub, though, is the exact same words are true for JPEG images. Every JPEG file has to be processed before it can be displayed or printed. It has to be decompressed, blocks of pixels reconstructed, printer data protocols construcued, and graphics signals created. The only difference is that JPEG is mostly the same for everybody and the processors are now available just about everywhere (I remember when that wasn't so).. The xame is true if we are talking about TIFF or GIF or any other format you can think of So the argument, while enthusiastic and energetic and emotional, is in reality quite empty. Raw is, in fact, just another file format available to store the information necessary to recreate a two-dimensional image. That's all. Like with many other very useful things, there's absolutely no magic in it.
I've been thinking about this since making my orig... (show quote)


The important difference between raw files and every other image file format is that the raw data itself cannot be altered! It stays the same, no matter what you extract from it in an editor. The editor develops and displays a copy of it, according to a preset profile OR what you do to alter the controls. You can always go back to that raw data.

SOME manufacturers allow you to store the changes in a preview image embedded in the raw file wrapper. Canon DPP is one of those. But you can always return to the "look" of the original preview image because all the EXIF metadata generated by the camera and needed to "prime" the raw processor is still embedded in that wrapper, too.

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Jun 1, 2021 11:56:09   #
Abo
 
Thousands of threads on Raw v JPEG

Thought I'd just say "Noooooooooooooooooooooooooo"
to make a nice round 100 posts in this thread...

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Jun 1, 2021 11:59:47   #
Nicholas J DeSciose
 
You give up everything. All the incredible possibilities of the photographic image don’t exist in JPEG. If you’re not interested in the find and magnificent photographic imagery Shoot JPEG

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Jun 1, 2021 12:00:59   #
Fredrick Loc: Former NYC, now San Francisco Bay Area
 
CHG_CANON wrote:
Assuming you capture the maximum size JPEGs for your camera, you have the exact same number of pixels in your JPEG as your RAW file. Your camera is an image editing computer. You get noise processing, White Balance and sharpening done automatically to your JPEG. You can even adjust / fine tune these values in your camera set-up. Many people will get 'sharper' images by very simply increasing their contrast and sharpening settings by a simple and modest increase of +1 over the default settings in their camera.

What you lose in JPEG is the bit-depth of color data and the wider colorspace options of RAW. Your JPEG files, by definition of the format, are 8-bit files. This 2^8 (2 to the power of 8) or 256 shades of Red, Blue and Green. When you increase to 12-bits, that yields 4096 shades of red, blue and green. As you adjust your colors, this bit-depth comes into play allowing for smooth transitions of color shades, especially in the blues of the sky. See the color banding in the sky of the JPEG example below. This is a real-life example of where 8-bits can impact your ability to lighten / darken / adjust the WB of the 'colors' of your JPEG, edits that need those various shades of colors available from the larger bit depth of the colors shades that define the smooth transition from red into violet into blue into green into yellow into orange.

The color 'banding' (right side) is the absence of these color shades needed to accomplish the smooth transition:



You can accomplishment plenty of edits in JPEG. You just have to be more careful in your exposure and recognize that if you 'miss' in the image exposure, you may not be able to recover the JPEG image that would be trivial work in RAW. Work like computer-based HDR also doesn't work as well on the JPEG, where in RAW, you can take one file, push the exposure up and down to create a 3-image set and then let the HDR software run its magic.

The example above was linked from the discussion at: https://photographypro.com/raw-vs-jpeg/
Assuming you capture the maximum size JPEGs for yo... (show quote)

Don’t know why, but I never thought about your comment of “where in RAW, you can take one file, push the exposure up and down to make a 3-image set and then let the HDR run its magic.” I will definitely have to try that. Thanks!

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Jun 1, 2021 12:01:31   #
JoeN Loc: East Texas
 
It doesn’t matter if you shoot RAW or JPEG, you don’t have to do post processing on either one if you don’t want to. However, if you shoot JPEG and choose to do a little post processing, you will be using the same basic procedures as you would if you shot RAW. The difference is that RAW gives you more to work with so you can do more refined post processing. Why do you use a DSLR instead of just your cell phone? Many people achieve excellent results with their cell phones and are completely satisfied with the results.

Most of us use a DSLR, or something similar, instead of a phone because we can get more information, more detail, and more control from the DSLR than we can from the phone. Just take your pictures the way that satisfies you, JPEG or RAW, and don’t worry about what others are doing. If you’re truly interested in why some people use RAW, then listen to their reasoning and after listening, you make the decision what is right for you. There is no right or wrong answer, just your preference. Use whatever method gives you the best results and be happy with those results. If you are not happy with you results, then by all means ask for help and listen to the advice you are given. It is up to you to decide what works best for you.

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Jun 1, 2021 12:04:03   #
davyboy Loc: Anoka Mn.
 
rmalarz wrote:
Oh geez, not again. Shoot whichever format you want. jpg is akin to Polaroid photos... you get what you got. RAW is akin to shooting film which provides a good deal of creative ability in processing. Check here for what can be done. Keep in mind the SOOC RAW images are planned. They weren't "fixed" in Ps. https://www.uglyhedgehog.com/t-698075-9.html#12279645
--Bob

Sorry but you can still PP a lot in Jpeg!

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Jun 1, 2021 12:06:54   #
davyboy Loc: Anoka Mn.
 
Nicholas J DeSciose wrote:
You give up everything. All the incredible possibilities of the photographic image don’t exist in JPEG. If you’re not interested in the find and magnificent photographic imagery Shoot JPEG


I’m interested and I can work magic with my jpeg

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Jun 1, 2021 12:11:33   #
Sidwalkastronomy Loc: New Jersey Shore
 
When the camera displays a photo for review on the back screen is this a jpeg or something else

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