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Mirrorless - a different view
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Mar 24, 2021 17:32:13   #
JRiepe Loc: Southern Illinois
 
CHG_CANON wrote:
Take Nikon, they made the mouth / throat of their new Z-mount wider by 8mm from 47mm to 55mm. For all mirrorless cameras, the lens sits closer to the sensor because space is not needed inside the camera for the flipping mirror between the lens and sensor. Example, Canon went from 44mm 'flange' to 20mm. Both changes allow for larger (wider) glass in the rear of the lens, offering potential lens designs, especially at wide apertures, that were not technically possible for SLR-based lenses.


Thanks for enlightening me. I appreciate it.đź‘Ť

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Mar 25, 2021 05:48:58   #
NikonRocks Loc: Sydney
 
When I put my D500 into Live View mode, don't I have a pseudo "mirrorless camera" now? The screen that shows what is coming through the lens is on the back of the camera instead of the viewfinder. And further more I have a histogram operating in real time so I can make adjustments before the shot is taken. I can also critically focus, expose and frame the shot as needed. Why buy some new gear to keep trendy when I've got it all - 3 in 1 - DSLR, Mirrorless and Video. This will satisfy my needs for years to come.

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Mar 25, 2021 05:54:58   #
ClarkJohnson Loc: Fort Myers, FL and Cohasset, MA
 
Wallen wrote:
We keep hearing the hubadubs that DSLR is dead. Maybe it is time to look beyond the news and advertisements.

Manufacturers want sales. That is what all this noise is about. Everyday we encounter advertisements and press release all pointed to that direction - sales.

It's always a miracle product that will bring heaven to earth and to hell and back being shoved up all our senses and body openings. All for sales.

It doesn't matter to them if we need it or not. They will lie and hustle the green out of our hands.

So why listen? Why do we believe the press releases and the ads? Why not have a look beyond?
Stand on your own and Have a different view.

Here is my own. Warning, its not mainstream and may touch some egos and probably hate. But this is just me talking out loud, speaking my own.

DSLR is dead!!!

Well maybe that is what they wanted. All the hype and misdirection pushes the mirrorless wonder product so far ahead of the DSLR that it is obsolete- so they say.
Be truthful. Is it? When you bought that mirrorless, did your photography improved by 10 folds? 100? 1000 times better? Or were you just conned out to get the latest gear?

Manufacturers are always looking to produce with the least cost and sell at the highest price. If mirrorless is sold with the same "cost to sales" premium, it will cost about 3/4 or at extremes 1/2 the price of an equivalent DSLR. Why? Because mechanical parts, materials like magnesium bodies and actual assembly of such, cost more. Electronics, molded plastics and smaller amount(size) cost much less.

Imagine a single button on a Toyota. What if that button cost dollar? If i produce 1 million cars, that is an extra 1 million dollars of investment. Meaning if i design something without buttons, I save millions. Suddenly touch screens makes a lot of sense!

A mirrorless is basically a dumbed down video camera. They made it look like a DSLR so it can take its place. Instead of shooting video they made it shoot slower, then advertise that their camera shoots 20 frames per second!!! Faster than your DSLR!!! Yea right...

So it shoots 10 - 20 - 25 frames a second, how many are in focus? 50%? 25%? 1 image?

The technology of the mirrorless has been around since the invention of the tv and are just getting repurposed. Innovation as some would say. It is not new, that is just hype. Don't buy into it.

Am I against mirrorless? Nope, not at all. But let us see things the way they really are. Cut the bull, forget the advertisement and hype. If it fits your style and improves your photography, then by all means buy as much as you can. Help the manufacturer so they can go back to making better cameras.

But if you are buying just for the hype, you are feeding the money train instead of supporting the production of better equipment.

Ask yourself, If they can put 4 cameras in a celphone and sell it for half the price of a mirrorless, what did you miss? Have you just been robbed?
We keep hearing the hubadubs that DSLR is dead. Ma... (show quote)


There’s a saying in marketing, “You can’t make the dogs eat the dog food.” To think that we consumers are helpless pawns in the hands of greedy advertisers is underestimating the stubbornness and inate intelligence of the consuming public.

The saying comes from a famous advertising shoot for a new dog food. The company had developed the new product based on focus groups of target consumers, picking just the right ingredients and preparing the perfect marketing campaign. But when it came time to film the ad with happy dogs eating the stuff, the dogs wouldn’t touch it.

The reason camera manufacturers are pushing mirrorless so hard is that the consumers have already made their choice - for cell phones. These are not titans of industry scheming to squeeze every cent from the consumer. Canon and Nikon are tiny compared to Apple and Samsung, and are scrambling to find something that the public will buy.

Better and better DSLRs would shrink to a niche market. Maybe MILCs will flameout as well. The buying public will decide.

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Mar 25, 2021 05:55:35   #
cameraf4 Loc: Delaware
 
dsnoke wrote:
My view is similar to that of the OP. My first camera, purchased in 1969, was a mirrorless camera. It was a Minolta rangefinder fixed-lens film camera. So the idea of a mirrorless camera is not new. But I agree with the OP, most of the current hype is marketing-driven. An interesting book related to this discussion is "The Entrepreneur's Dillemma" by Tami Mathisen. It can be found on Amazon, and it lays out why Sony was able to successfully bring mirrorless digital cameras to market and force Nikon, Canon and the rest to follow.
My view is similar to that of the OP. My first ca... (show quote)


Can't find this on Amazon or ANY book by Tami Mathisen. Can you post a hyperlink?

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Mar 25, 2021 06:03:15   #
Hamltnblue Loc: Springfield PA
 
I remember similar conversations when the same thing happened with film (although the forums weren't as populated as they are today).
Has photography improved 10 fold? No but it has improved. Most shots are properly exposed the first time. When looking through the view finder I can see close to final result, and can also see aperture, shutter speed, level, framing grid, and even the histogram if I want. I can look into the sun during sunrise and set photo's without burning my eyes. The list goes on a little more, but the bottom line is shooting is more enjoyable.

Nothing wrong with DSLR's, but I highly recommend people at least rent a mirrorless to try for a weekend.

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Mar 25, 2021 06:10:03   #
Jeffcs Loc: Myrtle Beach South Carolina
 
Did my images improve via new technology- yes
Due to the high resolution of the sensors glass has greatly improved to the point you can now count hairs
I can now make images not posible when I was using my F3 and remember the F3 brought forth apture priority that was all the rage look at where we are now
Do I run out to purchase the newest latest greatest no
Mirrorless has made life easier faster better
Look at the new Sony A1 it can shoot 30 per second and meter and focus 120 times per second - I’d have to guess sports photographers working in motor sports improved the keeper rate -
I could go on and on but why
If you like the new offerings and can afford it than drop the cash and make your purchase
I personally believe mirrorless has improved photography 1,000 fold

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Mar 25, 2021 06:25:30   #
w00dy4012 Loc: Thalia, East Virginia
 
"Just ask the man who owns one."

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Mar 25, 2021 06:53:00   #
hcmcdole
 
cameraf4 wrote:
Can't find this on Amazon or ANY book by Tami Mathisen. Can you post a hyperlink?


Here you go:

https://www.amazon.com/Entrepreneurs-Dilemma-Discovering-Foundations-Freedom-ebook/dp/B00UGZ3RD6

Reply
Mar 25, 2021 07:00:09   #
Delderby Loc: Derby UK
 
Wallen wrote:
We keep hearing the hubadubs that DSLR is dead. Maybe it is time to look beyond the news and advertisements.

Manufacturers want sales. That is what all this noise is about. Everyday we encounter advertisements and press release all pointed to that direction - sales.

It's always a miracle product that will bring heaven to earth and to hell and back being shoved up all our senses and body openings. All for sales.

It doesn't matter to them if we need it or not. They will lie and hustle the green out of our hands.

So why listen? Why do we believe the press releases and the ads? Why not have a look beyond?
Stand on your own and Have a different view.

Here is my own. Warning, its not mainstream and may touch some egos and probably hate. But this is just me talking out loud, speaking my own.

DSLR is dead!!!

Well maybe that is what they wanted. All the hype and misdirection pushes the mirrorless wonder product so far ahead of the DSLR that it is obsolete- so they say.
Be truthful. Is it? When you bought that mirrorless, did your photography improved by 10 folds? 100? 1000 times better? Or were you just conned out to get the latest gear?

Manufacturers are always looking to produce with the least cost and sell at the highest price. If mirrorless is sold with the same "cost to sales" premium, it will cost about 3/4 or at extremes 1/2 the price of an equivalent DSLR. Why? Because mechanical parts, materials like magnesium bodies and actual assembly of such, cost more. Electronics, molded plastics and smaller amount(size) cost much less.

Imagine a single button on a Toyota. What if that button cost dollar? If i produce 1 million cars, that is an extra 1 million dollars of investment. Meaning if i design something without buttons, I save millions. Suddenly touch screens makes a lot of sense!

A mirrorless is basically a dumbed down video camera. They made it look like a DSLR so it can take its place. Instead of shooting video they made it shoot slower, then advertise that their camera shoots 20 frames per second!!! Faster than your DSLR!!! Yea right...

So it shoots 10 - 20 - 25 frames a second, how many are in focus? 50%? 25%? 1 image?

The technology of the mirrorless has been around since the invention of the tv and are just getting repurposed. Innovation as some would say. It is not new, that is just hype. Don't buy into it.

Am I against mirrorless? Nope, not at all. But let us see things the way they really are. Cut the bull, forget the advertisement and hype. If it fits your style and improves your photography, then by all means buy as much as you can. Help the manufacturer so they can go back to making better cameras.

But if you are buying just for the hype, you are feeding the money train instead of supporting the production of better equipment.

Ask yourself, If they can put 4 cameras in a celphone and sell it for half the price of a mirrorless, what did you miss? Have you just been robbed?
We keep hearing the hubadubs that DSLR is dead. Ma... (show quote)


Sorry Wallen - but you've got it wrong. It was photographers who first coined "mirrorless". And your wrong likening an EVF camera to a video camera. The difference has always been about getting rid of a clunk click every trip, mirror slapping VF for an EVF with so very many advantages, too many to list here. Apart from that a DSLR is the same animal as an EVFC. Panasonic have just introduced a new electro-magnetic shutter - no more mirror slap or shutter shock! Hoorah for progress.

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Mar 25, 2021 07:06:15   #
BebuLamar
 
Delderby wrote:
Sorry Wallen - but you've got it wrong. It was photographers who first coined "mirrorless". And your wrong likening an EVF camera to a video camera. The difference has always been about getting rid of a clunk click every trip, mirror slapping VF for an EVF with so very many advantages, too many to list here. Apart from that a DSLR is the same animal as an EVFC. Panasonic have just introduced a new electro-magnetic shutter - no more mirror slap or shutter shock! Hoorah for progress.
Sorry Wallen - but you've got it wrong. It was pho... (show quote)


I thought it was Samsung that first used the term "Mirrorless".

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Mar 25, 2021 07:37:13   #
Canisdirus
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ruQVtSqnYo&ab_channel=MarkSmith

This video is indicative of what is happening in the photography world.

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Mar 25, 2021 07:58:24   #
tcthome Loc: NJ
 
CHG_CANON wrote:
The universe works in crazy ways. You can have good luck wash over you in waves, just like bad luck. Or, you can change to a mirrorless camera.



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Mar 25, 2021 08:08:22   #
ELNikkor
 
An EVF has an advantage in that you can point your 800mm lens directly at the sun and not burn out your eye, focusing on the sensor can not vary or go out of synch, and there is no chance of photo desharpening due to vibrations from the swish-smack of a mirror. (Remember the attempts to overcome the mirror-mechanics vibrations by the invention of the see-through mirror, which didn't move, but cut down the light going to the film and the viewfinder?) The engineering is far more advanced now (by putting a mini-video camera screen in there where the prism used to be,) than the 60++ year old analog SLR technology that the mirrorless technology has replaced. (I'm reminded of the spinning thing inside the distributor cap in old cars vs. electronic ignition, or carburetors vs. EFI, or drum brakes vs. ABS disc brakes.)
We're witnessing a monumental shift in imaging technology in which the boundaries of excellence in the final image are being pushed beyond the abilities of many to detect with their eyes, but the improvements are there and should be embraced. I may seldom need what is now being offered, but it is nice to know those possibilities are there and can be had.
The next generation of photographers is starting out with tools way beyond what mine had back in the early '60's, when the SLR was the latest thing replacing the tried and true rangefinders. For now, my D750 with its: "image degrading" anti-aliasing filter, "only" 24mp resolution, "slapping" mirror, NO IBIS, "only" 11 focusing points (I only ever use 1 anyhow!) etc. etc., is serving me just fine, thank you.

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Mar 25, 2021 08:10:39   #
Chadp Loc: Virginia Beach
 
A company that is not innovating and growing is a dying company. How much market share did Nikon lose by being late to the mirrorless market? Fortunately they are a company with many loyal customers who waited for their mirrorless systems. But many jumped to other brands. What if Olympus, Panasonic or Fuji did not go mirrorless? Where would they be? The evolution of the smart phone camera killed most of the point and shoot market. And then there is the brilliance of Sony and their mirrorless success. It’s really about survival; but we should want these companies to make huge profits off innovation as well. That encourages more advancement in technology.

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Mar 25, 2021 08:12:44   #
mikeroetex Loc: Lafayette, LA
 
Wallen wrote:
We keep hearing the hubadubs that DSLR is dead. Maybe it is time to look beyond the news and advertisements.

Manufacturers want sales. That is what all this noise is about. Everyday we encounter advertisements and press release all pointed to that direction - sales.

It's always a miracle product that will bring heaven to earth and to hell and back being shoved up all our senses and body openings. All for sales.

Here is my own. Warning, its not mainstream and may touch some egos and probably hate. But this is just me talking out loud, speaking my own.

Ask yourself, If they can put 4 cameras in a celphone and sell it for half the price of a mirrorless, what did you miss? Have you just been robbed?
We keep hearing the hubadubs that DSLR is dead. Ma... (show quote)

Oh great, another lecture that can't understand why they don't still manufacture buggy whips.

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