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Mirrorless - a different view
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Mar 24, 2021 10:20:54   #
Mac Loc: Pittsburgh, Philadelphia now Hernando Co. Fl.
 
CHG_CANON wrote:
You’re a crazy fool if you think this contraption will ever displace the horse ...

You’re a crazy fool if you think autofocus has a place in professional photography ...

You’re a crazy fool if you think digital cameras will replace film ...

You’re a crazy fool if you think Americans will sit on their couch and order their shoes (groceries, books, clothes, etc) and have them delivered without ever trying them on ...


That may be the most intelligent post you ever made.
But remember cars, auto focus, and digital weren’t instantly accepted, over time they were eventually embraced because they were the better option. I have no objection to mirrorless, I own mirrorless cameras. I don’t see them as earth shattering and life changing, but they’re ok. My Df is still my main camera. My objection is the incessant hype. If mirrorless is the face of the future in photography it will be because it is the better option not because it is constantly hyped.

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Mar 24, 2021 10:22:39   #
CHG_CANON Loc: the Windy City
 
The grass is always greener when captured with a mirrorless camera.

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Mar 24, 2021 10:34:11   #
kpmac Loc: Ragley, La
 
Buy what you like and will use. It's that simple.

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Mar 24, 2021 10:39:44   #
Ysarex Loc: St. Louis
 
JRiepe wrote:
People claim their photography has improved since moving to mirrorless and their images are sharper. And since they are saying that I don't doubt them. Where I'm confused is why? I would like for them to let others know the reason why.


That does not apply across the board. I've used plenty of DSLR cameras that take just as sharp and just as well focused photos as a mirrorless camera.

It does apply in select circumstances. One of reasons I moved to mirrorless some years ago and I've noted it in this thread already is wide lenses. They have always been a problem for SLR cameras. Design and build the best possible 24mm lens for an FX camera and you won't be able to mount it on an SLR because the mirror is in the way. To clear the mirror requires a complete redesign of the lens to push it forward out of the mirror cage. You're basically screwed on that as the lens you'll end up with on the SLR is performance compromised.

Mirrorless cameras can focus with increased precision and this is probably what you've heard folks talk about. Modern DSLR cameras use PDAF focusing systems that are independent of the actual physical position of the sensor. They have to be tuned or calibrated for precise focus. Pro-level DSLR allow the user to calibrate the system for their lenses. Amateur level cameras basically "live with" the factory installed job which is usually OK but may be a tad off.

Mirrorless cameras have their focusing system built directly into the sensor itself. They also allow for focus peaking in the viewfinder which you can't do with a DSLR. Because I do a lot of close-up work I find that ability invaluable. All of my mirrorless cameras allow me to magnify the focus area in the viewfinder to the point where I can tweak the focus point on a flower petal millimeter by millimeter along that petal. Now that I'm accustomed to having that I would not go back. As a generalist photographer I prefer the DSLR OVF and I still miss my old Canon 5d for that. But when I have the camera on a tripod and I have to focus on a close-up subject where I'm only going to get a few millimeters of DOF anyway having magnified precision focusing is really nice.

JRiepe wrote:
Both DSLR's and mirrorless use lenses and sensors the same way so why would an image captured on a mirrorless sensor be sharper than one captured on a DSLR sensor? I'm thinking mirrorless may have an advantage in a specific type of photography such as fast action sports but what would be the advantage in scenics, portraits or nature shots? I'm seriously curious.

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Mar 24, 2021 10:56:54   #
JRiepe Loc: Southern Illinois
 
Ysarex, thank you for your reply. I appreciate the explanation. My DSLR's may outlast me but if not my new system would be mirrorless. So far I'm happy with what I have so won't be changing over unless I have good reason to do so.

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Mar 24, 2021 11:05:14   #
dsmeltz Loc: Philadelphia
 
Wallen wrote:
We keep hearing the hubadubs that DSLR is dead. Maybe it is time to look beyond the news and advertisements.

Manufacturers want sales. That is what all this noise is about. Everyday we encounter advertisements and press release all pointed to that direction - sales.

It's always a miracle product that will bring heaven to earth and to hell and back being shoved up all our senses and body openings. All for sales.

It doesn't matter to them if we need it or not. They will lie and hustle the green out of our hands.

So why listen? Why do we believe the press releases and the ads? Why not have a look beyond?
Stand on your own and Have a different view.

Here is my own. Warning, its not mainstream and may touch some egos and probably hate. But this is just me talking out loud, speaking my own.

DSLR is dead!!!

Well maybe that is what they wanted. All the hype and misdirection pushes the mirrorless wonder product so far ahead of the DSLR that it is obsolete- so they say.
Be truthful. Is it? When you bought that mirrorless, did your photography improved by 10 folds? 100? 1000 times better? Or were you just conned out to get the latest gear?

Manufacturers are always looking to produce with the least cost and sell at the highest price. If mirrorless is sold with the same "cost to sales" premium, it will cost about 3/4 or at extremes 1/2 the price of an equivalent DSLR. Why? Because mechanical parts, materials like magnesium bodies and actual assembly of such, cost more. Electronics, molded plastics and smaller amount(size) cost much less.

Imagine a single button on a Toyota. What if that button cost dollar? If i produce 1 million cars, that is an extra 1 million dollars of investment. Meaning if i design something without buttons, I save millions. Suddenly touch screens makes a lot of sense!

A mirrorless is basically a dumbed down video camera. They made it look like a DSLR so it can take its place. Instead of shooting video they made it shoot slower, then advertise that their camera shoots 20 frames per second!!! Faster than your DSLR!!! Yea right...

So it shoots 10 - 20 - 25 frames a second, how many are in focus? 50%? 25%? 1 image?

The technology of the mirrorless has been around since the invention of the tv and are just getting repurposed. Innovation as some would say. It is not new, that is just hype. Don't buy into it.

Am I against mirrorless? Nope, not at all. But let us see things the way they really are. Cut the bull, forget the advertisement and hype. If it fits your style and improves your photography, then by all means buy as much as you can. Help the manufacturer so they can go back to making better cameras.

But if you are buying just for the hype, you are feeding the money train instead of supporting the production of better equipment.

Ask yourself, If they can put 4 cameras in a celphone and sell it for half the price of a mirrorless, what did you miss? Have you just been robbed?
We keep hearing the hubadubs that DSLR is dead. Ma... (show quote)


WOW! You have clearly not paid attention to what mirrorless is doing. More FPS and a higher keeper rate. Better AF stats. SO
YES!!!!!
More frames IN FOCUS per second!!!! ABSOLUTLY. WITHOUT A DOUBT!!!!
10 times better? YES
There are FEWER mechanical parts with mirrorless !!!! I mean did you really mean to indicate there were not???!!!!
Who is taking photos with a Toyota??? That was just asinine.
Yeah, some companies (not going to point fingers at Nikon) want you to buy the box without the lenses, but some companies (CANON) have been designing their systems around user needs for decades. (Maybe that explains why they are the industry leader)
You should really research things before putting embarassing crap on the internet.

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Mar 24, 2021 11:07:12   #
CHG_CANON Loc: the Windy City
 
A great chef can achieve wonders in the kitchen with only basic ingredients and the right attitude, the rest of us are always left wondering whether his camera has a mirror.

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Mar 24, 2021 11:29:46   #
dsnoke Loc: North Georgia, USA
 
My view is similar to that of the OP. My first camera, purchased in 1969, was a mirrorless camera. It was a Minolta rangefinder fixed-lens film camera. So the idea of a mirrorless camera is not new. But I agree with the OP, most of the current hype is marketing-driven. An interesting book related to this discussion is "The Entrepreneur's Dillemma" by Tami Mathisen. It can be found on Amazon, and it lays out why Sony was able to successfully bring mirrorless digital cameras to market and force Nikon, Canon and the rest to follow.

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Mar 24, 2021 11:36:09   #
CHG_CANON Loc: the Windy City
 
Canon's EOS R5 will change how we think about mirrorless, how we think about photography, how we think about life.

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Mar 24, 2021 11:58:42   #
larryepage Loc: North Texas area
 
Ysarex wrote:
Have you owned and used one yet?

Like anything there are pluses and minuses. You have to weigh those for your circumstance. When I bought my first DX mirrorless the first lens I bought was a 14mm prime. Point being my priority is wide lenses in the range of 20mm to 35mm for FX cameras. Because I use mirrorless cameras now I can use better lenses in my favorite lens range than are possible to make for SLR cameras. It shows both in the results and in use since those lenses are both optically superior as well as smaller and lighter.

Using a DSLR you can use a light meter to determine exposure. A mirrorless camera can do the same. A mirrorless camera can also use a live-view histogram before taking the photo and a highlight clipping warning before taking the photo. A DSLR can't use either a live histogram or a clipping warning except after the fact while reviewing the photo. That doesn't mean the DSLR is useless. It isn't a black and white dichotomy. But I sure do like being able to have all three of those exposure aids available up front rather than just one. It makes the task easier and the result more certain and I do use them -- I'd miss them if they were gone. Doesn't mean I couldn't use a DSLR effectively, but use of the mirrorless camera is enhanced.

I do a lot of close-up macro work on a tripod. Focusing a mirrorless camera in that circumstance is hands down superior to focusing a DSLR. Speaking of focusing I do remember having to fuss with adjusting/tuning a DSLR PDAF focusing system for specific lenses. Glad that nuisance is behind me.

There are also minuses about mirrorless. It seems I'm always charging batteries. But in my circumstances the scale tips overall plus toward mirrorless.

Have you owned and used one yet?
Have you owned and used one yet? br br Like anyth... (show quote)


I've used one. Marked the differences. Found it competent but not superior to a well-understood DSLR. Found the pricing prohibitive and unjustifiable. As a result, no, I've not owned one. Might have some interest if the pricing ever rationalizes against the functionality of other choices, but there is no specific intrinsic draw.

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Mar 24, 2021 11:59:36   #
Bbarn Loc: Ohio
 
I recently was in the market for a full frame camera, already having an APS-C DSLR. Ended up with a mirrorless full frame ILC. I think my pictures have improved a little, but more importantly, I really like the benefits of mirrorless and enjoy using my mirrorless camera much more than my DSLR. Personally, I don't use see myself buying another DSLR. But I am considering another mirrorless.

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Mar 24, 2021 12:05:48   #
Ysarex Loc: St. Louis
 
larryepage wrote:
I've used one. Marked the differences. Found it competent but not superior to a well-understood DSLR. Found the pricing prohibitive and unjustifiable. As a result, no, I've not owned one. Might have some interest if the pricing ever rationalizes against the functionality of other choices, but there is no specific intrinsic draw.


Got it -- no real experience.

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Mar 24, 2021 12:25:31   #
larryepage Loc: North Texas area
 
Ysarex wrote:
Got it -- no real experience.


Erroneous conclusion on your part. And no, I'm not going to buy one to see if I might like it better later.

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Mar 24, 2021 16:00:32   #
Wallen Loc: Middle Earth
 
dsmeltz wrote:
WOW! You have clearly not paid attention to what mirrorless is doing.

On the contrary I do. I have to...
Although the post as previously mentioned is my own opinion, talking aloud,

It is My personal point of view as a Graphic Designer who use cameras among the tools of trade, working in a multinational Sales & Distribution company which sell the said products as well. We learn about them because they are integral part of our job. I wont say I know everything but I believe I know enough of what matters to arrive at a logical point.

What is clear to me is that you did not read the whole post without a deep bias.

dsmeltz wrote:
More FPS and a higher keeper rate. Better AF stats. SO
YES!!!!!
More frames IN FOCUS per second!!!! ABSOLUTLY. WITHOUT A DOUBT!!!!
10 times better? YES

Check this out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-oXHiORuRk0
Only the Sony a9 "with some lenses" can actually achieve 20 frames per second "in focus".

dsmeltz wrote:

There are FEWER mechanical parts with mirrorless !!!! I mean did you really mean to indicate there were not???!!!!

If you read the post well, you will not be asking questions with a lot of exclamations.
I'll simplify this one for you. Less material, less parts, less assembly, less cost to produce but sold at a premium. Mirrorless should be cheaper than the average DSLR.

dsmeltz wrote:

Who is taking photos with a Toyota??? That was just asinine.

Where in the post is it written that somebody is taking photos with a Toyota? Asinine?

dsmeltz wrote:

Yeah, some companies (not going to point fingers at Nikon) want you to buy the box without the lenses, but some companies (CANON) have been designing their systems around user needs for decades. (Maybe that explains why they are the industry leader)

Where in my post are complaints about selling bodies without lenses nor anything specific about Canon?

dsmeltz wrote:

You should really research things before putting embarassing crap on the internet.

That is your opinion but note that there are those who agree with me. There are even a experts in the field with the same general thoughts. -The last time I checked photographylife.com " Best Camera for Sports and Wildlife Photography in 2021", mirrorless is 3rd place. The 1st &second are both DSLR's.
Then again, that is their opinion because on the other hand, Tony is sold to his Sony a9.

What does this mean? It means I have no friken bias to any of them at all. For me they are tools and some tools are better overall and some tools are better for a specific task. I don't mind paying for a great tool but I want my monies worth and no bull nor hype.

So in repetition and clarifying the previous post:

"Am I against mirrorless? Nope, not at all. But let us see things the way they really are.
If it fits your style and improves your photography, then by all means buy as much as you can. Help the manufacturer so they can go back to making better cameras.

But if you are buying just for the hype, you are feeding the money train and not supporting the production of better equipment."

P.S. You spelled embarrassing wrong (oooh how childish of me... naughty me....).

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Mar 24, 2021 16:07:06   #
Wallen Loc: Middle Earth
 
weberwest wrote:
I am with you all the way on this Wallen. Don't see the need yet for a mirrorless, but maybe, eventually I will, or will have to, depending on how the markets develop. Isn't it funny how some here tout the mirrorless as the only real thing and anything else is no longer acceptable - while others (or maybe the same) insist that it is NOT the camera, but the person behind the camera that makes or breaks the picture?

BTW, I bought my first digital camera in 2004 I believe, it was a mirrorless, if that is what is was called - or at least it didn't have a mirror: the KonicaMinolta Dimage A2, was a neat little camera then, unfortunately I cannot use it anymore because one of the darn pins is bent.

Have a great week Wallen - Joe
I am with you all the way on this Wallen. Don't s... (show quote)


Mine was a Kodak
Likewise a fine week to you too!
-Wallen

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