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Thoughts Around Automated vs. Manual Functions
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Aug 11, 2020 15:56:27   #
selmslie Loc: Fernandina Beach, FL, USA
 
selmslie wrote:
... That image had no overexposed raw pixels but according to RawDigger (next post) there was no room to add exposure.

Here is the RawDigger information for the dredge. There are no blown raw pixels at LV=15 despite what look like spikes at the right of each histogram.

But at Sunny 16 (LV 14.67) several hundred pixels would have blown out in the three channels.

LV 15
LV 15...
(Download)

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Aug 11, 2020 16:59:18   #
Ysarex Loc: St. Louis
 
selmslie wrote:
As we can see in the attached 100% comparison, both images are noisy. Although the one on the right should theoretically be less noisy than the one on the left, it's virtually impossible to tell.


It might be impossible to tell because that's not a 100% comparison. If you look at a 100% comparison you can see the difference. I see the difference and I presented an actual 100% comparison in which the difference is visible.

The point is: it's there and it validates the fact that SNR improves with increased exposure.

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Aug 11, 2020 17:08:47   #
selmslie Loc: Fernandina Beach, FL, USA
 
Ysarex wrote:
It might be impossible to tell because that's not a 100% comparison. If you look at a 100% comparison you can see the difference. I see the difference and I presented an actual 100% comparison in which the difference is visible.

The point is: it's there and it validates the fact that SNR improves with increased exposure.

Both images were displayed at 100% so it is a valid comparison. Download my posted side-by-side and view it at 100% and you will see exactly what I did on my monitor.

Yes, we all know that S/N gets better with increased exposure but it's a matter of degree. The difference in your two images is so insignificant that it is negligible.

But the difference between your images and mine is clear. My image showed no visible noise despite having a much wider DR.

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Aug 11, 2020 17:23:50   #
Ysarex Loc: St. Louis
 
selmslie wrote:
Both images were displayed at 100% so it is a valid comparison. Download my posted side-by-side and view it at 100% and you will see exactly what I did on my monitor.


No. Your screen shot is enlarging the image beyond 100%. Your comparison is not valid.


(Download)

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Aug 11, 2020 17:34:38   #
selmslie Loc: Fernandina Beach, FL, USA
 
Ysarex wrote:
No. Your screen shot is enlarging the image beyond 100%. Your comparison is not valid.

100% is one image pixel for each screen pixel. You are trying to change the subject because you can’t see the difference either.

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Aug 11, 2020 18:08:40   #
Ysarex Loc: St. Louis
 
selmslie wrote:
100% is one image pixel for each screen pixel. You are trying to change the subject because you can’t see the difference either.


No I'm just trying to keep you either competent or honest (not sure which just yet). If someone downloads your comparison and displays it actual pixels they can see (I can see) the pixelization around the house numbers resulting from enlargement of the image beyond the original actual pixels. Your comparison is not valid. I provided an actual pixels comparison that demonstrates the noise difference. My comparison is valid.


(Download)

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Aug 11, 2020 18:16:07   #
selmslie Loc: Fernandina Beach, FL, USA
 
Ysarex wrote:
No I'm just trying to keep you either competent or honest (not sure which just yet). If someone downloads your comparison and displays it actual pixels they can see (I can see) the pixelization around the house numbers resulting from enlargement of the image beyond the original actual pixels. Your comparison is not valid. I provided an actual pixels comparison that demonstrates the noise difference. My comparison is valid.

I thought I had them both at 100%. They are now. Try and find the difference.


(Download)

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Aug 11, 2020 18:38:21   #
Ysarex Loc: St. Louis
 
selmslie wrote:
I thought I had them both at 100%. They are now. Try and find the difference.


That's 100% and yes I see the difference which will only increase as the DR of the scene increases. More exposure = less noise even in low contrast low DR scenes where it may not matter much. I like to photograph high contrast scenes like the one below. The exposure is +1.3 above the camera meter reading. I opened the shadows in the front of the boat a lot. I would have been less successful doing that with 1.3 stops less exposure.

It doesn't matter if my practice is not significant for low contrast low DR scenes -- it does no harm. My practice is consistent which does matter and in scenes like the one here the added exposure does matter.


(Download)

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Aug 11, 2020 19:31:33   #
selmslie Loc: Fernandina Beach, FL, USA
 
Ysarex wrote:
That's 100% and yes I see the difference which will only increase as the DR of the scene increases.

You see a difference, I don't. Well just have to leave it at that
Ysarex wrote:
I like to photograph high contrast scenes like the one below. The exposure is +1.3 above the camera meter reading. I opened the shadows in the front of the boat a lot. ...

Your image above was exposed at LV 13. I would guess that if you looked at the raw file with RawDigger you would find that the clouds are slightly blown out. Not a big deal. They were not an important component of the image.

I would have opted for an LV of 14 (to account for the fact that the front of the boat is in the shade) followed by some shadow recovery. You probably would not see any more visible noise than I got for my dredging platform at LV 15 which was none.

You do it your way, I'll do it mine.

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Aug 11, 2020 22:56:31   #
James Pepoon
 
I photograph many weddings with a Nikon F-100 and for certain times during the ceremony/reception auto focus is indispensible. I use a Nikon F-100 for those times and also a Nikkormat F-2 for manual focus images. A Mamiya RB-67 manual focus with 127mm is great for the bridal photos. Use a 65mm lens on the Mamiya for the group photos. I have several Nikon digital cameras/lenses but don't feel the images are equal to film qualitywise.

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Aug 12, 2020 09:50:30   #
CatMarley Loc: North Carolina
 
selmslie wrote:
It sounds to me that you are very frustrated by your inability to explain what you mean by, "my exposure goal is to fully utilize the sensor in my camera."

I was going to prepare another exhibit for you but the sun is not up yet so here is some information from The Exposure Latitude of a Digital Camera and Comparison to Film. It's an interesting article among many offered by people who really understand the subject.

Roger Clark begins the article with the definition, "Exposure Latitude: The amount of overexposure or underexposure used in acquiring an image (e.g. with a given type of film or a digital camera) that can still produce acceptable results."

The article supports my previous comments and includes a demonstration using a Canon 1D Mark II and a Mackbeth ColorChecker exposed in full sun over a range from the recommended meter reading +6 stops (blown highlights) to -11 stops (noisy). Each raw capture was developed from raw to equalize the effect of the exposure differences. Anyone with a little time and curiosity can replicate these tests using their own camera.

What is relevant to this discussion is that the one exposed at +1 stop:



and the one exposed at -1 stop:



are virtually indistinguishable.

In other words, for a scene with a narrow DR and a camera with a wide DR, exposure is not critical. You may not need to go to extremes with ETTR or your goal to "fully utilize the sensor" when you are using raw capture. Getting the exposure "right" is a pointless exercise. Close enough is not just for horseshoes and hand grenades.

Of course, shooting in low light at high ISO is a different matter. That's when you need to be more careful because high ISO narrows the camera's DR.

And JPEG exposure is more important for reasons I have already covered.
It sounds to me that you are very frustrated by yo... (show quote)

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Aug 12, 2020 09:52:44   #
CatMarley Loc: North Carolina
 
James Pepoon wrote:
I have several Nikon digital cameras/lenses but don't feel the images are equal to film qualitywise.


Sounds like you need to try a Fuji!

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Aug 12, 2020 13:12:43   #
James Pepoon
 
Ms. CatMarley,thanks for the helpful advice. I will definitely rent a Fuji X-T4 and check out the performance quality of the images before my next wedding assignment. This is such a great website and I have learned so much useful information from people like yourself. Also will compare the images to my Nikons which are both D850s. Thank you!

Jim

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