And you know this... how? You seem to be setting up a false dichotomy that the existence of free will or predestination requires some god figure. That's your assertion, so I'll let you support it. Obviously history shows us that firm believers in god are also in favor of predestination. Calvin, for one, but Augustine and Francis and Luther also accepted predestination.

But is god really necessary to accept the idea of predestination? Let's assume you have free will as do I. I decide, of my own free will, to carry you to the top of a tall building and drop you. Can your free will overcome the laws of physics or are you going to go SPLAT on the sidewalk 60 floors down? From the moment I let go, your free will was overpowered by the fact of gravity. Your abbreviated future is predestined by the my action and the planet's gravitational force.

That is an extreme example, but how do you know the same laws of physics, biochemistry and biology are not working at the microscopic level to shape that which you believe is free will? In other words, how can you show what you call free will isn't a simple illusion fabricated by the body and brain?



Nope, that's a statement lacking in veracity - it's not true. I have never said there is no god. What I claim is that whether god exists or not, he/she/it is irrelevant. Big difference! I'll accept your apology for making a false statement about what I have said.


A kindergarten exposition on what science actually says. I assume you, like so many others who reject evolution, have never read a serious book on the subject. Your argument is an argument from ignorance. Not a strong logical position., but it appears the best you can muster.


Wrong again. The first definition in the OED reads:

"The action of predestinating, or fact of being predestinated; the ordaining or determination of events before they come to pass; pre-appointment by, or in the way of, fate or destiny; foreordination."

No mention of god at all. When I let you drop those 60 floors, god had nothing to do with your predestined mess on the flagstones below. You are working with a very limited view of predestination.



I do so wish you'd answer the interesting question of how you could determine if a group of people had free will or not before you scuttle off. I guess I am predestined to be disappointed by a lack of an answer.

Did you miss my response to your first mention of Lewis?


I was countering your assumption that I haven't already read it. It was not a safe assumption on your part.

Sorry if my wording confused you.

Have you read it?

Please don't take this wrong. I'm not doubting your statements, but I'd like you to clear up a couple things for me if you will. I don't have time to verify them right now and you are obviously an astute biblical scholar.

1. Define Christian Orthodoxy.

2. When did the "early Church" take up these theological topics? I'm under the impression it was LONG after the Crucifiction.

3. What were some of these early heresies and what are some of the modern cults in which they can be identified? Again, I'm under the belief that those heresies named by the early church when it was evolving into the Catholic church were just about anything not agreed on by whatever pope was in power at the time, and several of those popes did not have the best interest of Christianity at heart.

I personally believe all of Christianity can be summed up in the Sermon on the Mount, Matt. Chapters 5, 6 and 7. Everything else seems to be interpretation, embellishment and opinion.

there is no God or Intelligent Designer, we all came from inanimate material and all the little atoms, molecules, amino acids, protein,cells etc, etc just happen to come together in the right sequence and viola' out comes life and then that life oozed out more life, then that life oozed out a different life form and other life forms came to be and so and so, and some became male life forms and other female, and some became dogs, cats, elephants, dinosaurs, fish, whales, sharks, octopi, snakes lions Oh, my, kept going until we got to this stage and then BOOOM life stopped evolving.?

Entropy concerns itself with closed systems. The earth is not a closed system, but receives copious amounts of energy from the sun. There is only one closed system of which we are aware and that is the universe itself. Increases in entropy in one part of the universe will decrease entropy in another. The sun is running down, albeit slowly, and it is allowing an increase in order on the planets.