SteveR Loc: Michigan

Isaiah 14:12-14
King James Version (KJV)

12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

Bkh42 Loc: N.I. UK

Ditto Steve. You have a great grasp of Scripture.
I fear for the mockers

Bazamac Loc: Manchester, UK

Hey don't worry about us. We'll be just fine thank you.

Bazamac Loc: Manchester, UK

Now that's equally as stupid a reply as I've heard from many others who have 'opened their hearts to the truth' - dunno about the rest of you but I use my brain for thinking rather than a muscular pump. If you think that's how evolution works then you are very mistaken (I'm willing to accept it's an honest mistake, tho I suspect that many proponents of ID are les than honest a d deliberately choose to misunderstand). But if that's what you believe about how evolution works I'm not surprised you think it's a fairy tale. No evolutionary theorist would ever make the claims you are suggesting the theory of evolution makes. There are plenty of books out there on evolution written for the lay reader - a couple by Richard Dawkins spring to mind - The Blind Watchmaker and Climbing Mount Improbable. There's also quite a bit of literature on complexity and how order arises from chaos - William Poundstone's The Recursive Universe is quite a fun read.

But all of this is, to some extent, beside the point. Even if there are gaps in our understanding of how the universe, order and life arose - and there undeniably are - that STILL doesn't mean there has to have been a creator. And even if there WAS a creator, that STILL doesn't mean it has to be a guy who sent a magical talking snake to turn us all into sinners and then sent his own son (who, nevertheless, isn't descended from him) who he arranged to have murdered so he would be able to forgive us for the sins he made us commit in the first place.

And - going back to the problem of order and complexity - I still await a reply to my question about who created god (or gods, depending on your flavour of belief in magic). Because, if you struggle to cope with the idea that life evolved rather than was created, despite all the mass of evidence to support it, how on earth do you manage to accept that god (or gods) arose spontaneously out of nothing?

wpromine

mercando, I generally agree with you. However, I find that one cannot use Scripture to make your point when conversing with an atheist for obvious reasons. Their beliefs are based on what, to them, seem logical within the boundries of provability by scientific method. To them any other approach is without intellect. An "open mind" is one filled with 'myths and fancy' because it lacks the musings of fellow humans with superior intellect whose thoughts and conclusions require proof via scientific method. Here is a challenge to those who believe this way, though I doubt they will allow themselves to accept. Carefully read C. S. Lewis' book "Mere Christianity." This man, and many others, also possess superior intellects. In fact, C.S. Lewis was an atheist early in his adult life.

I have stated before in these discussions that evolution vs the "Adam and Eve" biblical story are, to me, not mutually exclusive. It doesn't matter to me how He created all things because it doesn't diminish the awesomeness of the results. So, in this thread, I have discussed the relevence of God to us as humans. I, also, have said that I respect beliefs contrary to my own and, in so doing, I do not demean the intellegence of those who disagree.

Bazamac Loc: Manchester, UK

It seems to be a common tactic among believers to point at some bright people and say, "Hey look, there's a bright person who believes in god/allah/jaweh/zeus/thor. Therefore it must be right to believe in [insert deity of your choice]." As an argument it's unconvincing. And it seems to be based on an assumption that we on the atheist side of the debate are claiming intellectual superiority. We're not - we're simply pointing out that, if you take a rational, evidence based, truly "open-minded" view of the world, it's impossible to reconcile that with the existence of a creator who actively engages in the world, requires worship, heeds prayers etc. etc. The arguments for biblical literalism, creativity, ID etc. that we've seen in this thread invariably begin from the '"closed minded", 'we've already decided what we believe, we'd better make sure the facts fit those beliefs' approach. So please don't think we're fooled by the "you're not open minded enough to accept there is a deity" approach. Or the appeal to listen to intellectual heavyweights. We're more interested in facts and rational argument than such tactics. (Though I have to admit that I can't help slipping into 'let's take the piss out of the god-botherers style now and then - it's such fun!)

Bazamac Loc: Manchester, UK

Oh, and while I'm at it - to say the bible creation myth and evolution are not mutually exclusive is plain nonsense. Either one is true or the other. To say it doesn't matter to you how we came to be is another matter altogether.

Bazamac Loc: Manchester, UK

Oh, and while I'm at it - to say the bible creation myth and evolution are not mutually exclusive is plain nonsense. Either one is true or the other. To say it doesn't matter to you how we came to be is another matter altogether.

Bazamac Loc: Manchester, UK

Oh, and while I'm at it - to say the bible creation myth and evolution are not mutually exclusive is plain nonsense. Either one is true or the other. To say it doesn't matter to you how we came to be is another matter altogether.

ngc1514 Loc: Atlanta, Ga., Lancaster, Oh. and Stuart, Fl.

And you know this... how? You seem to be setting up a false dichotomy that the existence of free will or predestination requires some god figure. That's your assertion, so I'll let you support it. Obviously history shows us that firm believers in god are also in favor of predestination. Calvin, for one, but Augustine and Francis and Luther also accepted predestination.

But is god really necessary to accept the idea of predestination? Let's assume you have free will as do I. I decide, of my own free will, to carry you to the top of a tall building and drop you. Can your free will overcome the laws of physics or are you going to go SPLAT on the sidewalk 60 floors down? From the moment I let go, your free will was overpowered by the fact of gravity. Your abbreviated future is predestined by the my action and the planet's gravitational force.

That is an extreme example, but how do you know the same laws of physics, biochemistry and biology are not working at the microscopic level to shape that which you believe is free will? In other words, how can you show what you call free will isn't a simple illusion fabricated by the body and brain?



Nope, that's a statement lacking in veracity - it's not true. I have never said there is no god. What I claim is that whether god exists or not, he/she/it is irrelevant. Big difference! I'll accept your apology for making a false statement about what I have said.


A kindergarten exposition on what science actually says. I assume you, like so many others who reject evolution, have never read a serious book on the subject. Your argument is an argument from ignorance. Not a strong logical position., but it appears the best you can muster.


Wrong again. The first definition in the OED reads:

"The action of predestinating, or fact of being predestinated; the ordaining or determination of events before they come to pass; pre-appointment by, or in the way of, fate or destiny; foreordination."

No mention of god at all. When I let you drop those 60 floors, god had nothing to do with your predestined mess on the flagstones below. You are working with a very limited view of predestination.



I do so wish you'd answer the interesting question of how you could determine if a group of people had free will or not before you scuttle off. I guess I am predestined to be disappointed by a lack of an answer.

ngc1514 Loc: Atlanta, Ga., Lancaster, Oh. and Stuart, Fl.

Interesting how all these spiritual beings suffer from the same petty issues as humans. Exactly what you'd expect if they were myths and legends created by early man.

Which, I suppose, they were.

ngc1514 Loc: Atlanta, Ga., Lancaster, Oh. and Stuart, Fl.

Your assumption is that some of us haven't read Lewis or Josh McDowell and his Evidence that Demands a Verdict or Pierre Teilhard de Chardin's The Phenomena of Man or Augustine's City of God and others.

Probably not a safe assumption.

ngc1514 Loc: Atlanta, Ga., Lancaster, Oh. and Stuart, Fl.

Does this mean you are not a young earth creationist?

dachs

and all this 'cos some have a heart felt belief, because they want to, others admire humanity's footling attempts to get to the bottom of Nature by experiment, theory and thought, so they feel in control. Neither are exclusive, monks a thousand years ago tinkered with yeast cultures and gave us Champagne by study & method, praise be.

But at least be polite to each other else we're on the road to Jonathan Swift's idea of the nations at war over whether you bash a boiled egg or cut the top off....


and that was done to death, in an eminently well written and literary way, years since! I put it to the learned audience that Swift had rather more eloquence and satire than we do.

Polite doesn't hurt anyone, even with forceful arguments.

wpromine

This means exactly what it says. If either version(biblical or evolution) doesen't matter to me then it means I am not necessarily a 'young earth creationist'. In fact ,I am convinced that the earth has evolved over billions of years. It's just that it doesn't matter how long but how.

I don't assume any thing about what you may or may not have read. I just challenged you to read C.S. Lewis's book "Mere Christianity". A man who once was where you are now and explains why he changed. I feel rather certain you won't read it for two reasons-- first, you likely think it would be a waste of your time and, second you don't want to change your mind. As has been said, believe whatever you wish. It doesn't affect my life one bit.