rberman

Mostly done “in camera “ but did discover some basic photo adjustments on my computer such as crop and light control. Have to admit I felt like God adjusting them. But it felt like cheating so I’m trying to stay away from that slippery slope and try to learn how to make good images within my camera and through development and printing techniques. Thanks for input. In future postings I will post originals. Peace and good health. Richard.

Ysarex Loc: St. Louis

Cheating and slippery slope? No. It's not cheating to use tools to best advantage. You want to learn film photography and that's fine. At the same time you want to take advantage of the option to share your images electronically. I took some photos two days ago. I immediately shared them with my daughter in Minneapolis/St. Paul. That's not a slippery slope or cheating. The images had to be in electronic format to do that.

Ansel Adams was a heavy-handed post processor. Photo purists of the time criticized him for over-manipulating his images beyond any semblance with reality. I assure you if he were alive today and shown what can be done with a copy of Lightroom he'd pee his pants in delight, and he'd be the first in line to adopt that technology.

Sorry your class got canceled. You want to learn the Zone System. Sure you want to go down that slippery slope? After all just what is the Zone System? It's a set of tools to post process your way around the fact that you couldn't get the shot right in camera.

Joe

Griff Loc: Warwick U.K.

Excellent, well seen photograph.

Papa Joe Loc: Midwest U.S.

Richard, I am pushing my late '80's and have been involved in photography since I was 14 years old but would be so very proud to have attained such results 'back in the day' as you have with this shot. Knowing what's involved in the film darkroom with the 'push and shove', etc. I very much admire, appreciate and respect your results.
Stay well and let's see more of your work.
God Bless,
Papa Joe

hiker60 Loc: Northern Idaho

Nice landscape with appropriate contrasts. Look forward to viewing more.

rberman

Hi Joe. Your probably right about the new tools available. Right now though for me it is almost too easy to correct a bad exposure or to crop a poor composition. I want to practice getting it right first (in camera). Once I have gotten that then perhaps it will be time to learn how to use the new tools available. It was interesting to hear that what Ansel was doing with “expansion and contraction “ in film processing and in manipulation of printing was controversial. What goes around comes around. I enjoyed your insights. Thanks. R

rberman

Thanks Papa Joe , What encouragement ! I’ll keep practicing to improve . There is so much to learn. Wish I had your experience. Stay healthy. Peace. Richard

Ysarex Loc: St. Louis

So then you don't want to learn the Zone System right away. The Zone System was originally created to handle those cases that you can't get right in camera.

Joe

rberman

Right now I’m using a spot meter and the zone system for exposure calculations only.
I will be learning development of film to be able to extend or to contract range of tonal values. Then it will be on to learn printing and how to use those tools.
You are absolutely correct in that what I call pre-digital post processing is just an earlier technique for manipulating images. I am now getting scans of negatives so I can send them out and share with people.
Modern technology is great but as a dinosaur I tend to move slow. R

PixelStan77 Loc: Vermont/Chicago

The important thing is you have the motivation to move.

Timmers Loc: San Antonio Texas.

Richard, I have been watching your posts for a while. There is something you may want to be advised with regards to about Ansel Adams and what emerged as The Zone System, that there are myths that will never be removed but can become more informed with as to both.

The Zone System was never intended to be JUST a technical approach to photography. Zone System was intended as a way to unify the ability to create a language of visualization to the technical aspects of the making of silver gelatin images. Many found it simpler to focus on the path rather than the out come. Thus the Zone System emerged as a purpose in and by itself. The number one purpose of Zone System was to use the syntax of the emerging 'system' to assist in the act of visualization of what was being photographed.

Taking you posted image as example, lets look at the sky as a point of visualization. You have rendered that sky as a high dry zone. This close to the high gray tone exhibited in the average modern density found in most digital tones of the digital photography of today. The gray density is rather high and so unappealing. It is a low Zone 7 or high Zone 6 and void of any detail. Unlike Eves Kline, there is no atmospheric effect and so has again served no purpose.

If we apply visualization, that of the recognition that it has no detail and no purpose we could refilter for a deeper gray density, sending it closer to a Zone 5 (18% Gray/.80). This would darken the entire field of view of the image down in density and so make the lower 2/3 of the scene more visual dominant. Further, the whites of the snow areas in the print would carry more importance standing out and so emphasizing the 'wintry' feel of the coldness of the scene.

You now see the real function/purpose of Zone System as a syntax for the visualization of the print. Zone System is not a technical function of the photographic event nor the making of a print. Zone System help me your viewer to communicate to you the feeling I find expressed or lacking in your print as the visual dialogue for my feelings and sensations of what you have given to me as your impression of the scene that you found and so created as the language of the original scene.

Timmers Loc: San Antonio Texas.

So, now that we have all of that technical foundation out of the way, lets tale that idea of pushing the empty sky down close to zone 5 (a deep gray). What we would have is a scene in which the high elevation, the area of mountain, looking much like the lower area (Aspen tree location) where humans have their living area, and both are showed in winter (show covered land). So why may we ask are these areas of woods not covered with snow? Where is winter for these forested areas? Why is there a band of life between mountain and valley both covered in snow?

The print draws our passing glance to this odd sense of something appearing out of order. The visualization of the image now has more than just a passing 'pretty image in winter".

rberman

Timmers, thanks for that input. Funny ,I was just reading about visualization in Adams book the Camera and also in the Negative. I had never connected the zone system to the visualization process but your explanation is starting to link them for me. I have been looking at the zone system as purely a method to control the dynamic range of tonal values. Ie I placed the darker band of vegetation in zone III and figured my exposure from that .( expose for the shadows and develop for the highlights ). Now having looked at my image with your input I agree about the sky. I have just started to experiment with filters and had I had them when I took that image about 2 months ago I would have used a red or orange filter to darken the sky. That is if I had a clear visualization of what I was trying to communicate The other thing that you mentioned was about what the story communicated or asked. And to be truthful I hadn’t thought deeper than just trying to create a nice image. So Thanks Timmer you’ve given me a lot to ponder. And since I am sheltering at home because of pandemic have plenty of time to do so. Peace. Richard

Timmers Loc: San Antonio Texas.

Hi Richard. (waves with a smile). Just to let you know, there is a lot of idiocy out there about Ansel and more about Ansel the God of Photography!

So lets some extremely valuable information to you. First, you want to use the Kodak Wratten 3X3 filters. Wratten is more than a trade name, find reference to Wratten Filters in the Handbook of Chemistry and Physics. This text is re-edited every few years so you can pick up an old volume for little to nothing from book sellers. Look in the index for Wratten Guide.

Every one writes about the Tri-Color filter set, you can find it every where, including Ansel's books. What you find little information on are the Minus Filters. Like the three Tri-Color filter that cut out two bands of light and pass one, the Minus filters are three and they remove ONE area of light and pas two areas of light. The minus filters are 1000 times more useful. One more general filter is the Wratten 2B filter, this blocks any and most all UV 'light' which is of no real use photographically.

Get the Hasselblad Compendium lens shade with the mounting ring for each lens you have. This classic matt box style lens shade is designed to hold Wratten gelatin filters perfectly at the correct location in front of the lens (plus it looks totally KOOL!).

You will want the Wratten 2B (UV filter). Then the Minus filters Wratten #12, #32 #44B. The weird looking one is the #32, same color look as the odd colored fish eggs used to catch fish while fishing in a pond, sort of glow in the dark type color look. There is another, the Wratten #15. The Wratten #15 is the one Ansel used most of the time (contrary to most of the know it alls and even Ansel saying he liked and used a 'orange' filter, hog wash, it was the Wratten 15 that was his go to filter. It is what gives the deep skies while showing the green foliage so well (the Red 25 turns foliage black while darkling the skies, but the 15 gives deep skies with detail in greens). If you want deep dark skis, substantiate the 15 for the 12.

Unknown to Ansel is another vary weird effect, he would have blown his wad over this trick! It only works in winter months but it is amazing. Combine a Wratten 12 with a polarizing filter (works with circular and linear polarizers), rotate the polarizer absolutely to the maximum position, The scene will loose all contrast, the shadows will open to the point that it looks like you fill flashed the entire scene! BUT, the polarizer must be rotate to it's full effect! You must also use the Minus #12 filter, it will not occur with the #15.

So now you have more stuff to fill your head.

One last heads up, do all and any of the 'pull' or 'push' processing of film with standard old school films, those were Tri-X, Plus-X and the like; all specifically designed for 'traditional/conventional MQ* Developers.

Do not use T-Grain Technology Films or Developers, these films and the developers are out side the scope of standard Zone System Technology.


*means Metol Quinone developer (Quinone means hydroquinone, and Elon is Kodak's name for Metol).

rmalarz Loc: Tempe, Arizona

Very nice work, Richard. As a disciple of AA, I'm curious how you apply The Zone System to roll film. I'm very accustomed to using it with individual negatives exposed with my 4x5. Roll film is a bit more tricky.
--Bob