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Non-destructive PP
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May 11, 2019 12:00:13   #
nadelewitz Loc: Ithaca NY
 
GreenReaper wrote:
Or what ever.
I'm trying to wrap my head around some of the discussion about LR being a non-destructive post processing process or software.

I have always saved my original images to a backup drive and then brought them into Photoshop, did what I needed to do then save it under a different file name and more than likely a different format. The original image still exists.

Am I missing something here? Lets not get to far into the weeds with this.
Thanks,
Mike


Despite what all the Photoshoppers/Lightroomers will say about not "needing" to save an untouched original copy of a file, NO ONE WITH ANY INTELLIGENCE should say that doing this is a bad idea. Just the opposite. This is exactly what backup (of any data) is all about. Doesn't matter what program is used to modify. Why should anyone be DISCOURAGING you from saving an archival copy of an important image? It's not about PS/LR. It's about preservation.

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May 11, 2019 12:14:07   #
TRAVLR38 Loc: CENTRAL PA
 
Thanks very much for your time and effort and your very prompt reply. I have long appreciated your well-informed comments here on UHH.
I have gone through he steps you recommend. Making the virtual copy before sending image to LR seems to be the key.
What does not seem to work for me, though, is sending the new PSD back to PS and finding there in the history the changes I previously made in PS. It would be nice to be able to revert to the history that was created in PS directly after sending image to PS in the first instance.
If it is not possible to go back to the edits first made in PS, then that is the way it is.
But the idea of a virtual copy does most of what I wanted to do. Thanks again.

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May 11, 2019 12:15:52   #
CHG_CANON Loc: the Windy City
 
nadelewitz wrote:
Despite what all the Photoshoppers/Lightroomers will say about not "needing" to save an untouched original copy of a file, NO ONE WITH ANY INTELLIGENCE should say that doing this is a bad idea. Just the opposite. This is exactly what backup (of any data) is all about. Doesn't matter what program is used to modify. Why should anyone be DISCOURAGING you from saving an archival copy of an important image? It's not about PS/LR. It's about preservation.


I can't speak for everyone ... my own thoughts are that each person should evaluate and understand every step and every action in their back-up strategy. Their back-up strategy is related, but distinct, from their editing process.

One area to consider is how many times are your backing up the exact same file? Once? Twice? Three? More?

Consider Card-A with IMG_0001.raw. If I copy from the camera to my c: drive and import into LR, I still have just this one version of IMG_0001.raw. Assume I format the card in the camera and now the file on disk is the only version. Here's where your back-up strategy comes into play. Do I already automatically back-up the files on C: where I've just copied IMG_0001.raw? If yes, my work and worries are done here regarding IMG_0001.raw as my automated tool sees a new file and creates a back-up, say to the cloud.

Consider instead that I copy IMG_0001.raw from the camera to the C: drive where I plan to edit and at the same time, I copy IMG_0001.raw onto a G: drive that is a back-up. And, I have process (manual or auto) where I back-up both these C: and G: drives. Now I have four copies of IMG_0001.raw. For what purpose?

Consider further in this second scenario that I get IMG_0001.raw into LR and eventually decide IMG_0003.raw is the 'keeper' from a string of images and I delete IMG_0001.raw. Do I also go out and delete the three back-up copies of this image when the master copy was deleted from LR?

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May 11, 2019 12:25:15   #
CHG_CANON Loc: the Windy City
 
TRAVLR38 wrote:
Thanks very much for your time and effort and your very prompt reply. I have long appreciated your well-informed comments here on UHH.
I have gone through he steps you recommend. Making the virtual copy before sending image to LR seems to be the key.
What does not seem to work for me, though, is sending the new PSD back to PS and finding there in the history the changes I previously made in PS. It would be nice to be able to revert to the history that was created in PS directly after sending image to PS in the first instance.
If it is not possible to go back to the edits first made in PS, then that is the way it is.
But the idea of a virtual copy does most of what I wanted to do. Thanks again.
Thanks very much for your time and effort and your... (show quote)


TRAVLR38, you didn't use <Quote Reply>, so we're all left to wonder to which of several comments your question is directed. I didn't recommend a virtual copy as that would seem superfluous, but maybe there was another comment that better explained the idea and this comment was directed.

Regarding not having your layer history inside the PSD, you might need to double-check your PS settings / defaults when you save your changes into the PSD. Assure that you are saving the layers. I only have PSE so it may be different in the main product, but in PSE there's a check-box when you save the PSD indicating whether to include the layers, something you need to select to maintain the layer information.

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May 11, 2019 12:26:15   #
DWU2 Loc: Phoenix Arizona area
 
Bob55 wrote:
I know it must be frustrating to those of you who understand the process completely but I have a specific question as it applies to sharing RAW files that have been edited in LR Classic. After editing RAW files, I email some of these edited photos to various family members by clicking on File / email photos. Does the recipient get the edited photograph??? Thanks in advance, Bob


Yes.

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May 11, 2019 12:26:40   #
Gene51 Loc: Yonkers, NY, now in LSD (LowerSlowerDelaware)
 
nadelewitz wrote:
Despite what all the Photoshoppers/Lightroomers will say about not "needing" to save an untouched original copy of a file, NO ONE WITH ANY INTELLIGENCE should say that doing this is a bad idea. Just the opposite. This is exactly what backup (of any data) is all about. Doesn't matter what program is used to modify. Why should anyone be DISCOURAGING you from saving an archival copy of an important image? It's not about PS/LR. It's about preservation.


The context of your comment is different from the context of non-destructive PP. People who do image editing use a non-destructive workflow to be able to reverse part or all of the edits to an image. In a raw converter it is not necessary to do this, since the original image is never touched - only the metadata is edited - and the process keeps a baseline of the settings for how the file emerged from the camera. In Photoshop, extensive use of layers and smart objects and the tools to manage them allow one to construct a non-destructive EDITING workflow with full reversibility. Of course no one would suggest that saving a backup copy of any image is bad practice. But this has nothing to do with a non-destructive workflow, and all to do with good data retention practice. Really two different things. Your suggestion is valid for all files, a non-destructive workflow, in this context, applies to image and video editing.

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May 11, 2019 12:28:50   #
TRAVLR38 Loc: CENTRAL PA
 
Sorry. I was responding to CGH CANON.

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May 11, 2019 12:31:59   #
nadelewitz Loc: Ithaca NY
 
CHG_CANON wrote:
I can't speak for everyone ... my own thoughts are that each person should evaluate and understand every step and every action in their back-up strategy. Their back-up strategy is related, but distinct, from their editing process.

One area to consider is how many times are your backing up the exact same file? Once? Twice? Three? More?

Consider Card-A with IMG_0001.raw. If I copy from the camera to my c: drive and import into LR, I still have just this one version of IMG_0001.raw. Assume I format the card in the camera and now the file on disk is the only version. Here's where your back-up strategy comes into play. Do I already automatically back-up the files on C: where I've just copied IMG_0001.raw? If yes, my work and worries are done here regarding IMG_0001.raw as my automated tool sees a new file and creates a back-up, say to the cloud.

Consider instead that I copy IMG_0001.raw from the camera to the C: drive where I plan to edit and at the same time, I copy IMG_0001.raw onto a G: drive that is a back-up. And, I have process (manual or auto) where I back-up both these C: and G: drives. Now I have four copies of IMG_0001.raw. For what purpose?

Consider further in this second scenario that I get IMG_0001.raw into LR and eventually decide IMG_0003.raw is the 'keeper' from a string of images and I delete IMG_0001.raw. Do I also go out and delete the three back-up copies of this image that when the master copy was deleted from LR?
I can't speak for everyone ... my own thoughts are... (show quote)


This is craziness. The only point I'm making is, save a copy (or two, or twelve, or a hundred) of an important file, to be preserved unaltered for the future when you may want/need to start from scratch with it.

Then you are free to do whatever you and your software want.

Is this not a very simple concept?

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May 11, 2019 12:37:01   #
nadelewitz Loc: Ithaca NY
 
Gene51 wrote:
The context of your comment is different from the context of non-destructive PP. People who do image editing use a non-destructive workflow to be able to reverse part or all of the edits to an image. In a raw converter it is not necessary to do this, since the original image is never touched - only the metadata is edited - and the process keeps a baseline of the settings for how the file emerged from the camera. In Photoshop, extensive use of layers and smart objects and the tools to manage them allow one to construct a non-destructive EDITING workflow with full reversibility. Of course no one would suggest that saving a backup copy of any image is bad practice. But this has nothing to do with a non-destructive workflow, and all to do with good data retention practice. Really two different things. Your suggestion is valid for all files, a non-destructive workflow, in this context, applies to image and video editing.
The context of your comment is different from the ... (show quote)


Well yes, people ARE suggesting that saving a backup copy of an image is unnecessary if using PS/LR. Another word for "bad", "wasteful", whatever.

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May 11, 2019 12:39:10   #
John_F Loc: Minneapolis, MN
 
No, Mike, you are not missing anything. Saving edits under a different name does nothing whatever to your originals. There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding on these Hog forums.

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May 11, 2019 12:39:24   #
CHG_CANON Loc: the Windy City
 
nadelewitz wrote:
This is craziness. The only point I'm making is, save a copy (or two, or twelve, or a hundred) of an important file, to be preserved unaltered for the future when you may want/need to start from scratch with it.

Then you are free to do whatever you and your software want.

Is this not a very simple concept?


My point was to show how simple implementation of this concept, without consideration of the big picture, may lead to all sorts of unintended consequences. You only need one copy, not three, not twelve, not one hundred ... If you back up your images imported from the same location they are imported into LR, you're already have this 'save' copy because LR doesn't alter that original.

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May 11, 2019 13:35:23   #
TRAVLR38 Loc: CENTRAL PA
 
CHG_CANON wrote:
TRAVLR38, you didn't use <Quote Reply>, so we're all left to wonder to which of several comments your question is directed. I didn't recommend a virtual copy as that would seem superfluous, but maybe there was another comment that better explained the idea and this comment was directed.

Regarding not having your layer history inside the PSD, you might need to double-check your PS settings / defaults when you save your changes into the PSD. Assure that you are saving the layers. I only have PSE so it may be different in the main product, but in PSE there's a check-box when you save the PSD indicating whether to include the layers, something you need to select to maintain the layer information.
TRAVLR38, you didn't use <Quote Reply>, so w... (show quote)


I think I have found the problem I have been having. When in PS, I did not make separate layers for changes. So when I was sending the PSD back to PS from LR, I was only getting the edited PS without the history. If I make a separate layer for each change, then when I send PSD back from LR to PS as "original", I then have layers. There is no history of what I have done on the individual layers, but at least this is something I could work with without having to start from scratch.
Thank again for your help.

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May 11, 2019 13:37:17   #
cbtsam Loc: Monkton, MD
 
CHG_CANON wrote:
The best way to avoid saving over the original is not to remember as a human to not make this mistake. Rather, the best way is to design software that does not include this capability.


So what I think you are saying is that the OP isn't missing anything, and his process is fine as long as he doesn't vary in his process and thereby make a human error.

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May 11, 2019 13:48:21   #
Ysarex Loc: St. Louis
 
Gene51 wrote:
The context of your comment is different from the context of non-destructive PP. People who do image editing use a non-destructive workflow to be able to reverse part or all of the edits to an image. In a raw converter it is not necessary to do this, since the original image is never touched - only the metadata is edited - and the process keeps a baseline of the settings for how the file emerged from the camera. In Photoshop, extensive use of layers and smart objects and the tools to manage them allow one to construct a non-destructive EDITING workflow with full reversibility.
The context of your comment is different from the ... (show quote)


Almost but not 100%. If you pass a smart object from ACR and in PS use layers and smart filters you'll be 90+% there but if it's necessary in PS to create a raster layer then "full reversibility" will get tripped up on that raster layer and some amount of work redo will become necessary should you need to go back and make a change for example in ACR. A parametric editor provides a 100% non-destructive raw workflow -- ACR/PS gets very close but doesn't always achieve 100%.

Joe

Gene51 wrote:
Of course no one would suggest that saving a backup copy of any image is bad practice. But this has nothing to do with a non-destructive workflow, and all to do with good data retention practice. Really two different things. Your suggestion is valid for all files, a non-destructive workflow, in this context, applies to image and video editing.

Reply
May 11, 2019 15:02:05   #
Harvey Loc: Pioneer, CA
 
GreenReaper wrote:
Or what ever.
I'm trying to wrap my head around some of the discussion about LR being a non-destructive post processing process or software.

I have always saved my original images to a backup drive and then brought them into Photoshop, did what I needed to do then save it under a different file name and more than likely a different format. The original image still exists.

Am I missing something here? Lets not get to far into the weeds with this.
Thanks,
Mike


I have been a PS user for over 15 yrs - in the past I have read articles where folks claimed PP and saving in JPG were destructive to your image - over the years I have found no loss of quality to my saved/non-altered 'originals' - saying that I have many 'copies' that are quite screwed up from repeated efforts of PP. I am by no means the expert/pro that many are with digital editing but I sure do enjoy it when my efforts in PP do help an image or show that the changes I have done come out the way I wanted them.

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