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Masks may make things worse
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Oct 31, 2020 13:38:11   #
btbg
 
berchman wrote:
North Dakota and South Dakota are against wearing masks. Covid is now exploding in those two states.


They are still well behind several other states that have mask mandates and similar population sizes and they still have an economy. Would you rather the country go bankrupt and a bunch of people starve to death because they were not allowed to make a living, or would you rather that some people with underlying conditions unfortunately die, but others will still have resources to survive? Because that is the choice that is coming down the road.

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Oct 31, 2020 13:47:43   #
berchman Loc: South Central PA
 
btbg wrote:
And I would rather die than be controlled by the government. Give me liberty or give me death. Remember. Pretty important statement. And those who give up basic liberties for safety will soon have neither. Yeah, I know, that is a paraphrase, but it's close enough to get the idea.


Aren't you already "controlled" by government? Don't you have to have your car inspected once a year, pay to register it, pay to renew your driver's license, obey speed limits and traffic lights or get fined or arrested? Don't you have to submit to a personal search by TSA if you want to fly? Don't you have to fasten your seat belt in the airplane or be kicked off the flight? Don't you have to fill out an income tax form each year or be liable to penalties and possible arrest? Don't you have to surrender your firearm if you want to enter a courthouse?

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Oct 31, 2020 14:41:30   #
mwalsh Loc: Houston
 
berchman wrote:
Aren't you already "controlled" by government? Don't you have to have your car inspected once a year, pay to register it, pay to renew your driver's license, obey speed limits and traffic lights or get fined or arrested? Don't you have to submit to a personal search by TSA if you want to fly? Don't you have to fasten your seat belt in the airplane or be kicked off the flight? Don't you have to fill out an income tax form each year or be liable to penalties and possible arrest? Don't you have to surrender your firearm if you want to enter a courthouse?
Aren't you already "controlled" by gover... (show quote)


Masks are so much different than all that stuff though. Masks are the government's unconstitutional attempt to control my behaviour....I mean versus seat belts, searches, red lights, not breaking into other people's house's, metal detectors, and all the other normal contraints on my behaviour which are constitutional...as compared to the outrageous and unconstitutional idea of wearing a mask to protect my neighbor from me...

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Oct 31, 2020 17:11:38   #
srt101fan
 
btbg wrote:
I have posted the data about masks and state deaths per capita at least four times since the pandemic began, but give me some time and I will do it again.

I understand what you are saying, but I don't think the mask is really giving you any level of protection unless you don't touch your mask or face when you are wearing it, which most people do. I find myself constantly adjusting mine. That means that anything I touched now is contaminating my mask, making it actually more likely that I will catch something. I don't think I am unique in that. All most people are doing is putting something that may be contaminated with covid or the flu or a common cold right in front of your face so that you are sure to get it. Something to think about.

It will take a while, but I will get the data again.
I have posted the data about masks and state death... (show quote)


You raise some valid concerns, but I can't agree with your conclusions. I usually wear a cup-style mask and don't find it's necessary to adjust it all the time. When I do, or when I put it on or take it off, I handle it by the edges and the straps. With cloth masks that may not be as easy but still doable. People just need to be willing and pay attention. I will say that public health officials have been seriously remiss in not issuing better guidance re mask styles and handling procedures. When you see so many people with masks covering their mouths but not their noses you know something is wrong.

I don't believe the contamination transfer hazard (surface to hands to face) is as serious as you imply it is. Proper hygiene and decontamination of surfaces, coupled with situational awareness and common sense, can do much to reduce that hazard. For it to work, though, people have to take protective measures seriously and they should have easy access to advice and guidelines.

I should admit that wearing a mask and following safe procedures does not impose a terrible hardship on me. I'm in the high risk group, so it's easier for me to be concerned. I'm retired, kids long out of the house, so it's easier to hunker down than someone who has kids to take care of and go to work every day. Add to that that I'm a homebody by nature, so the covid restrictions are easier for me to handle.

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Oct 31, 2020 17:40:53   #
srt101fan
 
btbg wrote:
The following states plus Puerto Rico and the District of Columbia require masks. Kansas is an aberration because they have a mask mandate, but do not enforce it and individual counties can completely opt out. So, I will leave Kansas out of the data. 17 states have no mask mandates. I realize that this won't be 100 percent accurate because I'm going to average the deaths per capita of the states with mandates versus the states without. That isn't totally accurate because it does not account for the population differences between the states, but that actually makes the data look better for mask mandates as New York Texas and California are the most populated states so it actually helps the mask mandate data when you don't account for total population. Anyway, here is the data according to Statista as of today. Hope that answers your question about where I got the information. Just google covid deaths per capita by state and the statista website will be the first choice that actually has data.

States with mask mandates
New Jersey, 184 deaths per 100,000
New York, 172
Massachusetts, 144
Connecticut, 129
Louisiana, 127
Rhode Island, 113
District of Columbia, 91
Illinois, 78
Michigan, 77
Delaware, 71
Pennsylvania, 68
Maryland, 68
Texas, 63
Arkansas, 63
Indiana, 63
Alabama, 59
Nevada, 57
New Mexico, 47
Ohio, 45
Minnesota, 44
California, 44
Virginia, 43
North Carolina, 41
Colorado, 39
Kentucky, 33
Wisconsin, 33
Montana, 32
Washington, 31
Puerto Rico, 25
West Virginian, 25
Oregon, 16
Hawaii, 15
Maine, 11
Vermont, 9

Average 62.5588

States without mask mandates
Mississippi, 111
Arizona, 81
Florida, 78
South Carolina, 76
Georgia, 75
North Dakota, 65
Iowa, 54
Tennessee, 48
Missouri, 47
South Dakota, 46
New Hampshire, 35
Idaho, 34
Nebraska, 33
Oklahoma, 33
Utah, 19
Wyoming, 15
Alaska, 11

Average 50.647

Kansas has a rate of 35 per 100,000, but once again can not be included in the data because it is not consistent throughout the state.

And just to further illustrate the point if you remove New York and New Jersey from the data since they had a lot of deaths early then the average deaths per 100,000 in the mask mandate states drops to 55.34, still higher than the states without mask mandates. Making the data even more conclusive is that Georgia, Tennessee, Florida and Arizona are all high tourist states and South Dakota had Sturgis, so logic says that those states should be higher than non tourist states.

I repeat, I don't know why the data is the way it is. I just know that mask mandates are not working and the data clearly shows that.
The following states plus Puerto Rico and the Dist... (show quote)


The data is interesting and I sure can't explain it. But because of all the variables, it doesn't sway me away from my belief in the value of masking. I will, however, take a closer look at the data you furnished and the Statista website. Thanks!

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Oct 31, 2020 21:46:54   #
btbg
 
berchman wrote:
Aren't you already "controlled" by government? Don't you have to have your car inspected once a year, pay to register it, pay to renew your driver's license, obey speed limits and traffic lights or get fined or arrested? Don't you have to submit to a personal search by TSA if you want to fly? Don't you have to fasten your seat belt in the airplane or be kicked off the flight? Don't you have to fill out an income tax form each year or be liable to penalties and possible arrest? Don't you have to surrender your firearm if you want to enter a courthouse?
Aren't you already "controlled" by gover... (show quote)


First off, no I don't have to get my car inspected. Second, TSA is unconstitutional. It is illegal search and seizure. When the airlines ran their own searches that was legal, but the other is not. Someone should challenge it in court. With the current supreme court makeup they should win.

As far as some of the other regulations whatever. Seatbelts on airplanes, that's private industry, they can make any rules they want. Income tax is now the law of the land. Mask mandates and government lockdowns are not. They are executive orders from governors who are overreaching their authority.

Here in Oregon 10 churches sued on the basis that the governor had overreached her authority. The judge hearing the case agreed. You see, the state has two laws concerning executive orders for emergencies. The first law, which is quite old has no time limits on it, but does not list pandemics as an item that the governor can issue executive orders on.

In 2012 the Oregon State Legislature recognized that could be a problem and passed a second law concerning executive orders specifically for pandemics. That law cites the older law, pointing out that since it does not include pandemics they are passing the second law to cover that. The new law limits the governors authority to 28 days.

Well, after the judge ruled that the governor had exceeded her 28 day limit the Oregon supreme court ruled that the 28 day limit does not exist since the legislature cited the earlier law, there can be no time limit on the new law. So, in case you aren't getting it, they ruled that 28 days does not mean 28 days. Her first order was given in late March. She has now extended it into January, despite the legislature clearly giving her just 28 days.

The orders decide who can and who can not go to school, allows Oregon and Oregon State to practice basketball, but does not allow University of Portland or Portland State to practice. It has a number of other clauses that create winners and losers. It is designed to control people in the state, not to limit the spread of the virus. If you can't see that governors exceeding their authority and making orders without consulting with the state legislators as a problem and a loss of freedom, then you are not looking very clearly at what is happening.

Many of the orders have been done specifically to hurt Trump's reelection chances rather than for the public good.

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Oct 31, 2020 21:50:35   #
btbg
 
srt101fan wrote:
You raise some valid concerns, but I can't agree with your conclusions. I usually wear a cup-style mask and don't find it's necessary to adjust it all the time. When I do, or when I put it on or take it off, I handle it by the edges and the straps. With cloth masks that may not be as easy but still doable. People just need to be willing and pay attention. I will say that public health officials have been seriously remiss in not issuing better guidance re mask styles and handling procedures. When you see so many people with masks covering their mouths but not their noses you know something is wrong.

I don't believe the contamination transfer hazard (surface to hands to face) is as serious as you imply it is. Proper hygiene and decontamination of surfaces, coupled with situational awareness and common sense, can do much to reduce that hazard. For it to work, though, people have to take protective measures seriously and they should have easy access to advice and guidelines.

I should admit that wearing a mask and following safe procedures does not impose a terrible hardship on me. I'm in the high risk group, so it's easier for me to be concerned. I'm retired, kids long out of the house, so it's easier to hunker down than someone who has kids to take care of and go to work every day. Add to that that I'm a homebody by nature, so the covid restrictions are easier for me to handle.
You raise some valid concerns, but I can't agree w... (show quote)


i appreciate that you are being reasonable in your response. It should be pointed out that either the virus is spreading because people are not properly wearing their masks and are causing contamination, or the mask mandates are not working because masks don't work.

I don't know which it is, but the data is quite clear. There is no positive correlation between the mask mandates and the deaths per capita. That's the reality and that reality isn't going to change just because people believe that masks work.

I hate to be a naysayer, but the data is quite clear. I dare anyone on here to find a way to refute the data instead of just saying that masks provide some protection.

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