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Thoughts Around Automated vs. Manual Functions
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Aug 9, 2020 11:58:31   #
BebuLamar
 
selmslie wrote:
It “evaluates” the scene and uses an algorithm to suggest an exposure. It’s different but it’s still an opinion.


Except for matrix and evaluated modes. All other modes spot, center weighted, full average and in the case of a hand held meter spot, incident with the dome or flat diffuser that all don't have an algorithm. Just a simple measurement. Not much different than using a ruler to measure something. It's not absolutely accurate but the tolerant is quite good. And it's no opinion.

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Aug 9, 2020 12:17:01   #
selmslie Loc: Fernandina Beach, FL, USA
 
BebuLamar wrote:
Except for matrix and evaluated modes. All other modes spot, center weighted, full average and in the case of a hand held meter spot, incident with the dome or flat diffuser that all don't have an algorithm. Just a simple measurement. Not much different than using a ruler to measure something. It's not absolutely accurate but the tolerant is quite good. And it's no opinion.

The engineers who designed all of those metering modes would disagree that the others are simple measurements.

1. Spot selects a single (maybe movable) spot to weight at 100% while ignoring all of the others.
2. Center weighted gives more weight to the center of the image than the edges and corners.
3. Full average gives equal weight to the entire field of view (or is it to each of the separate spot senors).

Separate hand-held meters (even spot meters) are simpler but they don't take the field of view into account. But thats not what we are discussing here.

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Aug 9, 2020 12:21:33   #
BebuLamar
 
selmslie wrote:
The engineers who designed all of those metering modes would disagree that the others are simple measurements.

1. Spot selects a single (maybe movable) spot to weight at 100% while ignoring all of the others.
2. Center weighted gives more weight to the center of the image than the edges and corners.
3. Full average gives equal weight to the entire field of view (or is it to each of the separate spot senors).

Separate hand-held meters (even spot meters) are simpler but they don't take the field of view into account. But thats not what we are discussing here.
The engineers who designed all of those metering m... (show quote)


You don't get it! It's a simple measurement and that's all. No different than any other kind of measurements like length, volume, mass, temperature, speed, pressure it's simply light intensity.

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Aug 9, 2020 12:32:51   #
joer Loc: Colorado/Illinois
 
larryepage wrote:
Before proceeding, I want to declare openly that I am about to ask a question which some may interpret as unnecessarily raising controversy or attempting to troll the group or provoke some of its members. Please be assured that is absolutely not my intent, and it is my hope that we can have something resembling an intelligent discussion around the topic. There are some specific elements involved, and I don't want to shy away from those. But please do not interpret them as provocation.

The thoughts behind this discussion arose as I was getting ready to do the latest firmware update for my D850. It was released in April, but I somehow missed it until yesterday. It apparently provides for improved operation with certain lenses. And no...it does not add the "Eye Focus" capability that many have been anxiously awaiting.

So the question is this...and I haven't been able to find a delicate way to ask it...for those who treasure "Manual" photography, exactly what are the boundaries of thta method of operation? And for the purposes of this discussion, let's please set aside the question of whether "Auto ISO" is or is not part of "manual exposure." It's been discussed thoroughly elsewhere without resolution. I'm passionate around my position on that subject and realize that others are equally passionate around their own, different, position.

BUT...it seems that many (and I mean many everywhere, not just here) who would never consider following anything other than manual exposure management would also never consider anything other than automatic camera focus. And preferably automatic camera focus that can identify, lock in on, and focus on the eye of their subject, whether human or animal. Why is the manual choice preferred in the one case, but the automatic choice is lusted after in the other case?

Now just for full disclosure here. I proudly use autofocus essentially all the time, except for night sky photography and a few other cases where autofocus falls short. I was initially quite concerned when some of my newest cameras no longer had an autofocus assist light. (Trust me...I learned that it's OK.) Because of some vision problems relating either from glaucoma or occupational exposure to intense light (my doctor and I don't agree on which), I shamelessly depend on autofocus. And yes, I use Program exposure mode a lot of the time also. It's just too good and too convenient if I select the correct metering pattern, and I am pretty shameless about that also.

Why do we think there is such a disparity in the acceptance of automatic exposure vs. autofocus, especially since various forms of automatic exposure have been around longer than autofocus? I am really interested in the responses here, especially if we can keep the discussion civil and thoughtful.
Before proceeding, I want to declare openly that I... (show quote)


I have one simple guideline. When a camera feature can capture a situation faster, more accurately or better than I can in manual mode...its a no brainer, literally.

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Aug 9, 2020 12:39:02   #
Ysarex Loc: St. Louis
 
BebuLamar wrote:
You don't get it! It's a simple measurement and that's all. No different than any other kind of measurements like length, volume, mass, temperature, speed, pressure it's simply light intensity.


You are absolutely correct. Matrix, evaluative, pattern, etc. metering use background algorithms. Turn them off and the meter is nothing more than a simple measurement. As a simple measurement it is consistent.

Joe

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Aug 9, 2020 12:41:43   #
Architect1776 Loc: In my mind
 
joer wrote:
I have one simple guideline. When a camera feature can capture a situation faster, more accurately or better than I can in manual mode...its a no brainer, literally.



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Aug 9, 2020 12:43:12   #
User ID
 
selmslie wrote:
The camera's meter does not provide a technically correct exposure. It provides an opinion based on an algorithm.

There is no single correct exposure.

If we are working with the raw file or a negative in a scene where the dynamic range is not wide we can probably achieve the same final result from two images taken one or more stops apart. With a JPEG or slide film the range is narrower.

Having captured an image at a specific exposure we may decide later to make it darker or lighter for reasons that have no technical aspects.

There are judgement calls the camera cannot make.
The camera's meter does not provide a technically ... (show quote)


Nice facts !

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Aug 9, 2020 12:46:39   #
User ID
 
srt101fan wrote:
My meter doesn't opine.... maybe I should get a new camera.... 😢


Didja update the FW ?

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Aug 9, 2020 13:07:04   #
Ysarex Loc: St. Louis
 
selmslie wrote:
In what way does your exposure for raw differ from the camera's exposure for the JPEG?


This is the most recent photo I have taken. My wife said grab a snap of the last glad in the garden (end of summer). I took the photo with my Fuji XT-2. I used a non-Fuji lens and so I set the camera to Aperture Priority mode. I set the f/stop on the lens and the camera selected the shutter speed.

My exposure differs from what the camera would have selected for the JPEG by +1.3 stops (you can check the EXIF data in the photo). I used the EC function in the camera to set that variance. I knew to do that because I have tested my hardware and my exposure goal is to fully utilize the sensor in my camera. The raw file I saved does that. Obviously the camera would have exposed less.

Joe


(Download)

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Aug 9, 2020 13:10:42   #
selmslie Loc: Fernandina Beach, FL, USA
 
BebuLamar wrote:
You don't get it! It's a simple measurement and that's all. No different than any other kind of measurements like length, volume, mass, temperature, speed, pressure it's simply light intensity.

No, I really do get it. There is nothing simple about it.

It involves multiple sensing points and separate algorithms to calculate what needs to be boiled down to a single number.

For example, a weighted average requires multiple values to be averaged together after applying different weights.

I am looking at it as an engineer. You are looking at it as a much simpler concept.

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Aug 9, 2020 13:15:15   #
User ID
 
selmslie wrote:
No, you did not answer my question. You only explained your goal.

It doesn't answer how you decide why your exposure is different from the camera's recommendation "100%" of the time.

In what way does your exposure for raw differ from the camera's exposure for the JPEG?


Explaining the goal explains it well enough to me but then I’m not looking to prove him hopelessly unscientific.

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Aug 9, 2020 13:33:31   #
tomad Loc: North Carolina
 
CHG_CANON wrote:
Hopefully, a simple observation will clarify things for you: Just because the word 'manual' occurs in both manual focus and manual exposure does not make 'manual' equal in these two unrelated context. Action sports and all forms of BIF photography would not exist today without AF. How you expose / meter impacts the final result for experienced photographers, but any level of experience can photograph moving subjects with today's AF-enabled cameras.



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Aug 9, 2020 14:06:39   #
selmslie Loc: Fernandina Beach, FL, USA
 
Ysarex wrote:
You are absolutely correct. Matrix, evaluative, pattern, etc. metering use background algorithms. Turn them off and the meter is nothing more than a simple measurement. As a simple measurement it is consistent.

Joe

Turn them off? What do you use in their place? Average, center weighted average, spot? They all use algorithms to combine (or isolate in the case of spot) multiple readings into a single measurement.

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Aug 9, 2020 14:20:38   #
selmslie Loc: Fernandina Beach, FL, USA
 
Ysarex wrote:
This is the most recent photo I have taken. My wife said grab a snap of the last glad in the garden (end of summer). I took the photo with my Fuji XT-2. I used a non-Fuji lens and so I set the camera to Aperture Priority mode. I set the f/stop on the lens and the camera selected the shutter speed.

My exposure differs from what the camera would have selected for the JPEG by +1.3 stops (you can check the EXIF data in the photo). I used the EC function in the camera to set that variance. I knew to do that because I have tested my hardware and my exposure goal is to fully utilize the sensor in my camera. The raw file I saved does that. Obviously the camera would have exposed less.

Joe
This is the most recent photo I have taken. My wif... (show quote)

Most of us recognize ETTR when we see it.

The EXIF says ISO 200 1/90 @ f/1(?). But that's not the real aperture (probably close to f/16) which would have been right for Sunny 16 (ISO 100 1/200 @ f/16) and a good JPEG.

You could expose a little more than Sunny 16 because the highlights are not really very white (like white clouds, egg shells, Styrofoam).

ETTR has been covered ad nauseam on UHH. This is probably not a good time to go off on that tangent.

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Aug 9, 2020 14:32:47   #
Ysarex Loc: St. Louis
 
selmslie wrote:
Turn them off? What do you use in their place? Average, center weighted average, spot? They all use algorithms to combine (or isolate in the case of spot) multiple readings into a single measurement.


Matrix, Evaluative, Pattern, etc. use algorithms that analyze the input and react relative to that input. Average, center weighted, spot do not attempt to analyze the input and as such once the engineers have put them together they function as dumb measuring devices. That's the difference that BebuLamar is pointing out. As dumb measuring devices they behave consistently and do not have opinions. That's BebuLamar's point and you know that. You're just trolling as usual.

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