Vince68 Loc: Wappingers Falls, NY

Okay so yesterday I posted a color image and a B&W conversion of that image, asking for thoughts and comments, tips, etc. On the B&W image, I did not do any adjustments to the color image first. I took the raw file, decreased the Vibrance and Saturation sliders in Lightroom, then made adjustments to the image. A few Hogs that commented said that when doing a B&W conversion, the color image should be adjusted first, then convert to B&W.

So that is what I did with this image. I made my adjustments in Lightroom, then made a copy, then went to the HSL adjustment and changed the image to B&W, and made other adjustments. I then sent the image to Aurora 2019 and let it convert the single image to HDR. I made adjustments to the image in Aurora and came up with this B&W.

I am attaching both the color version and the B&W. Any comments to either image are welcome and appreciated. As I said yesterday, I prefer color, but I do like B&W too, but I have not done much B&W at all and do want to improve at it.

(Download)


(Download)

johngault007 Loc: Florida Panhandle

Vince,
I still prefer the color version. Although I would have processed a little different in regards to the background scenery and not using as much saturation, cropping slightly on the right side to not show the outside edge of the wall, and probably bringing the exposure down a little, but that is just personal preference, and doesn't take away from a great shot.

For the B&W conversion, it seems like it may be over sharpened a bit much. From what I am still learning about B&W, contrast is the key to a great photo, and maybe converting to HDR, then processing B&W might have taken a bit away from that.

Sorry for the terminology difference. I use DarkTable so there is a slight difference in what we call individual "sliders". (e.g. I don't have a Clarity setting)

Vince68 Loc: Wappingers Falls, NY

John,

Thanks for looking and your comments. Once I read your comment about the B&W maybe being over sharpened too much, I had an ah-ha moment. I did sharpen the color version as I normally do in Lightroom as part of my adjustments, and now thinking about that, maybe I should not have sharpened the color version as I normally do before converting to B&W.

I will probably go back and undo the sharpening of the color copy that I converted, and then try the B&W conversion again. That will have to wait to tomorrow at least, as I'm gonna call it a night, its 2:30 here.

Linda From Maine Loc: Yakima, Washington

I'd like to make a color versus black and white observation.

With this color image, our brains easily sort out the distant outdoor view (cool, receding greens and blues) from the closer brick details (warm red/orange). In this pic we might look to the distance first because it's the lightest part of the photo.

Once color is removed we have no easy visual cues, so the textures, shapes and individual elements become more important and when the tones are similar throughout can lead to a feeling of "where do I look first" and "what is this photo about." Along with John's HDR/contrast and sharpening observations, Steve offers a solution in the next comments below.

There is also selective dodge and burn (lighten, darken) - a powerful option for b&w, or Cany's use of gradient filters in LR that he demonstrated in your previous topic.

Steve DeMott Loc: St. Louis, Missouri (Oakville area)

I agree with Johngault007 about over sharpening. The statue & building seems to need some separation from the background. A red filter, Using B&W film, will darken the green,blue areas of the image and lighten the reddish areas.
I'll post my ver. of your image if you agree.

--Steve

bbrowner Loc: Chapel Hill, NC

My first and immediate impressions...

The b&w is flat (besides some other shortcomings). The color has some depth.

... just initial, first quick look.

Barry

Cany143 Loc: SE Utah

What I'm going to say will likely come across as sounding hyper-critical, Vince, but I hope you'll take what'll be said in a positive, supportive, and hopefully instructive way:

Your stated concern, in both this post and in your previous post, is more how to best convert color to b&w than it is with how to produce a 'best version' of either image you converted. That's fine; the how's and why's of doing so are great ways to expand your photography in general and your vision in particular, and learning ways to do either is worth the time and effort. On the basis of that, kudos to you.

But whether as the initial steps into a learning process or as a refinement of that process through the use of software capabilities, shouldn't the image come first? Whether that image is a throwaway test case or an image you really, genuinely like, shouldn't the goal be to make as good a photograph as well as you possibly can? And in the instance of the image in this post, have you? Which leads me to the critical part....

I don't 'believe' either version; either the color or the b&w conversion.

Without seeing your original image in its unmodified 'raw' (hopefully camera RAW, but if you shot it as a .jpg then so be it) state, I can only guess at what range of tones might exist. Likewise, I can only guess at why you'd have HDR'ed it, and my guess could easily be wrong. Was the interior darker than you wanted it to be? Had the outside background foliage become washed out as a result of trying to balance subdued interior light with brighter exterior light? In effect, was the overall exposure accurate for what you sought to convey?

The coloration in your hdr-ed version is strange. I'd accept that strangeness in an image that was intended as an abstraction, but my guess would be that abstraction was not your intent. (As an aside, Linda's comment about warm advancing / cool receding isn't inaccurate, but it isn't universal either. Similarly, the idea that light tones catch or focus or direct 'the eye' while dark tones do the opposite isn't entirely accurate either. Simply put, it depends-- on what the subject or scene demands, and where YOU want that emphasis placed.) The oddness of the coloration could be handled in any of a variety of ways, and assuming you have some sort of raster editor (since you're using Lr, might you have Ps, too? Or anything that allows the making and blending of layers?), what you might try is to layer your hdr-ed layer on top of your un-(or lightly-) modified image, then decrease its opacity and try one or more blending modes. Odds are, you'll find a combination of these that balance the inside/outside light while keeping the tones and colors 'believable' if not entirely SOOC-ishly accurate.

Your b&w conversion is based on what, then? A problematic color version? Whatever sharpening you did is really not the issue. The issue is that the tones are not 'believable' one against the next.

More could be said. 'How To Do Stuff' tutorial-ish replies are not simple, and less so are replies that go beyond what an OP may want to hear. Not looking to make any enemies, or come off as appearing to be some sort a know-it-all. But I AM trying to be honest.

Vince68 Loc: Wappingers Falls, NY

Hi Steve, yes go ahead and post your version. Thank you.

Vince68 Loc: Wappingers Falls, NY

Hi Barry, thanks for commenting. I agree with your assessment that the B&W has some shortcomings. I'm still trying to figure out this process of making a color image into a B&W.

Vince68 Loc: Wappingers Falls, NY

Linda, I wasn't unhappy with my color version of the image, I just picked that to try making it into a B&W. I understand what you are saying about removing the color and losing visual cues. And once John mentioned the over sharpening effect in the B&W, I realized that was an error on my part in my workflow.

Again, I am trying to learn the process of converting to B&W, maybe choosing the right image to convert, and the proper tools/adjustments needed to make an image a color image into a good B&W image.

Thank you for your suggestions and comments. I will keep trying.

Vince68 Loc: Wappingers Falls, NY

Jim, first off, no offense taken and I do not find what you said hyper critical either. I am looking for help/suggestions, and trying to learn. I will try to reply to you in order of your comments.

I am trying to learn the how to convert a color image from color to B&W. Before my post yesterday, I have dabbled in it some, but have not liked the final results. I have watched videos, and read user posts here about the process.

I totally agree with you about the image coming first, that in order for a photograph to be good, you should try to make it good before you press the shutter. My image posted the day before was a case of a not great image taken due to the hazy, overcast day. I didn't think it was great to begin with and thought it might look better as a B&W. So that was the motivation for changing that image to B&W. I got tips and suggestions from others, including yourself, which I was looking for.

Yes, I did shoot in RAW. Yes, the interior was darker than the outside background, and the foliage was washed out looking, and you could not make out what faint clouds there were in the sky. In answer to the overall exposure question, no it was not. What I could see was blue sky with some light wispy clouds, but in trying to get the interior light enough, the outside was overexposed. So basically, it was not really a good image coming out of the camera to begin with.

You are correct abstraction was not what I was trying for. The reason I used Aurora and HDR was based on one of the replies to my first post and that user used HDR on that photo, so that was my reasoning for using HDR on this photo. The one thing I thought the HDR did in the B&W was bring out the clouds better, but it did affect other parts of the image negatively. Plus the sharpening of the image when processing it first as a color image had a negative effect on the B&W image, especially after using HDR on it. Yes I do have PS, CS6 version, and LR is 6.14. As I mentioned yesterday, I am not proficient at all in PS, and honestly do not use it much at all, especially with layers and masks. I know, I should start to use it and learn it if I want to do more than basic adjustments to images.

No, the reason for making a B&W of this image was not a problematic color image. I was satisfied enough with the color image, I just chose it to convert to B&W simply as another exercise in trying to learn.

I certainly do not think you are coming off as a know it all, and as I said in the first paragraph of my reply, I am trying to learn, and do not think you are being overly critical. What good would it do me if you told me it was good when it is not? That will not help me get better. You are being honest.

Steve DeMott Loc: St. Louis, Missouri (Oakville area)

This was a copy of the color image and converted to B&W then added a light green filter. Nothing else.

(Download)

Hamltnblue Loc: Springfield PA

Another thing you could try is taking the shot vertically

Cany143 Loc: SE Utah

No clue (well, maybe that's not an entirely accurate guess of) how Vince might see your revision, Steve, but for my money, that's a really right re-interpretation of a converted interpretation of a previously interpreted scene.

We 'expect' the facing wall to lack detail and be in shade, and you got that. We 'expect' the background foliage to be there, but not be somehow overpowering, and you got that, too. We 'expect' the statue to be darker, more sculpted, and separated from the world outside in sunlight, and you got that in spades. Considering the multiple ways each of these considerations could have been handled, that all it took for you to get there was to apply a green filter is both immensely elegant and pretty doggone sweet.

Yeah, I'm watching this thread because I'm interested. There's still Vince's uber basic question of 'how and when to convert to b&w.' And that's a question that doesn't have a single answer, because there are dozens of answers and all of them are right. Image-wise, cookbook 'do this first then do that second' suggestions are seldom the best ways of going about things, no matter what one person posts in a YouTube video or UHH post. You gotta see where you want to go before you hop in the car. When you don't know where you're going, any road will take you there.

Linda From Maine Loc: Yakima, Washington

Cany said it all, so I'll just add "Beautiful!"

Vince and all participants - thank you so much for an instructive topic!