Beercat Loc: Central Coast of California

When a non-believer comes to this forum he/she is wither looking for the truth or just wants to stir the pot. You really don't think your going to change our belief about Jesus/God do you?

So what is it .... are you searching or just stirring the pot?

I'll go the extra mile .... people as yourself try to make logic out of the argument, you can't ... why? Because God will not be 'boxed' up and conform to the boundaries of our human understanding. The Bible states:

1. "But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised."

2. So he said, "You have been given knowledge about the secrets of the kingdom of God. But to others they are given in parables, so that "they might look but not see, and they might listen but not understand.'"

So until one is ready to have their eyes opened the the word of God the Bible will never make sense. Discussing spiritual issues with you is folly.

I'll take it one step further ..... Have you ever scene a supernatural healing? I'm talking about the type in the Bible, you know blind eyes see, the lame walk, the deaf hear .... I've scene 100's of supernatural healings all over the world. The Bible states that after the multitude were healed before them they listened more intently to what he had to say ....

My point is the best way to have your paradigm changed is to experience the supernatural, then your ears will be open to the words of the Bible, your heart will be open to receive.

The best way to experience the supernatural (like in the Bible) is to go to where the miraculous is happening in a 3rd world culture. Where there is much oppression God's supernatural miracles happen on a daily basis. You don't hear about them as the secular media doesn't want to but the miraculous is happening. Don't take our words as proof .... go on a long vacation to a 3rd world country where the miraculous is happening .... once you experience this for yourself you will never be the same.

gvarner Loc: Central Oregon Coast

Yes, here we are. As an atheist I don't "believe by faith", your words. Faith has nothing to do with facts since facts are what they are. I don't take gravity as a matter of faith. But ascribing evidence to the existence of a Creator is a bit of a stretch. You can provide a rationale but not evidence.

taffthetooth Loc: U.K

What would you consider evidence? Science is also done on faith, if you don't have faith that it will work you won't even start! Remember, modern science was started by men of faith! So what would you consider evidence and we'll see what we can do.

gvarner Loc: Central Oregon Coast

Modern science was started by men who questioned everything. Their faith or lack thereof had nothing to do with it. If faith were the guiding principle, we may still be hung up on the belief that the Earth is only 10,000 years old, give or take a few millennia. I call it the religious filter. I think that the biggest criticism that the religious community has of science is that its methods can't prove the existence of God, therefor they can reject science as just another belief system as false as their own.

Beercat Loc: Central Coast of California

Have no idea of who you are responding to .... but I'll believe it was me. I didn't ask you to believe my words. I challenged you to go to a 3rd world country where Christianity is exploding and witness the miraculous for yourself. I'm not talking just talking about what you would consider faith in witnessing something. I'm talking about something like watching a leg grow right before your eyes and you can be a few feet from the healing. Another words it can't be manipulation/slight of hand, it's the real deal.

No before you blow that off would you agree that something like witnessing the miraculous in this way could alter your belief and in fact lead you to a loving God .... and everlasting life, isn't it worth a few weeks and a few thousand dollars? If your answer is no then your not ready to meet God thus no need to continue conversations. Are you willing to know the truth or just wanting to stir the pot?

Thomas needed to place his fingers in the holes ..... if that is what it takes God can do something similar for you ....

Floyd Loc: Misplaced Texan in Florence, Alabama

Why hasn't science answered the question of how Jesus fulfilled over 43 prophecies from the Old Testament? Is the reason because, according to statisticians, fulfilling just 7, that were beyond His control, gives a probability of 1 to 10 to the 17 power( 1 followed by 17 zeros - and almost all scientists think anything beyond 1 to 50 zeros is a statistical impossibility) yet Jesus did fulfill that and 36 others-about half were not under His earthly control.
Have you ever read the Bible? If you are willing to read it with an inquiring mind - not a closed one- you might be surprised. I suggest you read Genesis, then John, then Romans. Then read C.S. Lewis' MERE CHRISTIANITY. He was an atheist/agnostic who set out to prove Christianity was something for minds less powerful than his. In the process, he became the voice of reason and Christianity during World War II.
Also,have the millions of believers who have died in the last 2,000 years, of all mental levels, been mislead? Some of the great minds of history chose to believe in God - matter-of-fact, read the writings of our Founding Fathers and you will find that almost all of them were believers.
Finally, what happens when we die? If you're correct I've wasted portions of my life and we are both not in existence; if I'm right, I get to eternally enjoy being in God's presence and look over His shoulder at all He is doing throughout the universe while you and all those who choose not to believe get to spend eternity being separated from God and being punished for poo-pooing God, His plan, and what Jesus went through to buy us back from sin.

taffthetooth Loc: U.K

You still didn't answer the question- what do you consider evidence?
Modern science was started by men of faith who on reading the Bible understood that God made the universe intelligible and then pursued it.
Who said the earth is only 10,000 years old? The fact that some Christians do is irrelevant, some atheists think the world is flat, do you? I have no problem with the earth being nearly 4 billion yrs old, and no Christian I know thinks otherwise! So far you haven't said a great deal!
Someone here posted about seeing miracles for yourself, but I don't think that would work. People saw the miracles Jesus did and didn't believe, neither will you if you don't want to!
Your last sentence is patently false.

So, two questions for you.
1: What do you consider evidence?
2: Why don't you want there to be a God?

gvarner Loc: Central Oregon Coast

Thank you all for your observations, I appreciate the opportunity to exchange viewpoints. I believe that God exists for those who believe and doesn't for those, like myself, who don't. Human consciousness is the greatest mystery to mankind and each of us has our own way to come to terms with that enigma.

taffthetooth Loc: U.K

Your statement is confused!
God if He is real, exists for both of us (even if you don't believe it!)
If God does not exist, then he does not exist for both of us (even if I believe he does!)

You still haven't answered my question on evidence!
If you don't want to believe, then fine that's up to you, but I would be interested as why you don't want to believe?

gvarner Loc: Central Oregon Coast

One man's belief is not another man's reality. That's the nature of faith, it's a personal thing and should be kept that way. If we want to, we can convince ourselves to believe anything, as you have apparently done. You're happy, I'm happy, that's all that matters.

Beercat Loc: Central Coast of California

Alright everyone .... we simply have someone that wants to stir the pot ....

I won't respond to anymore of his post ....

taffthetooth Loc: U.K

You have misunderstood. If God is real, then He is real for you, as well as me! The only difference is you don't believe.

Floyd Loc: Misplaced Texan in Florence, Alabama

Choosing not to believe doesn't make it so; people thought the earth was flat-it isn't; people thought the world was the center of the universe-it isn't; those who disagreed with either premise were believed heretics until confronted with reasonable alternatives that had to be considered. When one is honest, there is now more evidence for Christianity; yet men still try to play word games, lacking in logic, to justify their beliefs.

Secondly, if Scripture is incorrect and man "evolved" what need existed for man's brain to develop beyond that of apes,chimps,etc. since everything necessary for continuning the species is present at that level? What need existed for art, music, literature, a man in battle giving his life for his friend,even disagreeing about the very process of thought? None of these are necessary for survival or furthering the species of mankind.

taffthetooth Loc: U.K

gvarner Loc: Central Oregon Coast

And I would simply offer that choosing to believe doesn't make it so. That's the strength of faith. It can't be proven or disproven except through word games as we are engaged in here. We are still 99% with chimpanzees and 100% animals. We are the only animal that may indeed drive itself into extinction because of our inability to keep from destroying our own nest.

Thank you all for the exercise.