Ugly Hedgehog - Photography Forum
Home Active Topics Newest Pictures Search Login Register
Main Photography Discussion
Ban on Photo Manipulation
Page <<first <prev 4 of 18 next> last>>
Jan 15, 2018 23:29:48   #
rehess Loc: South Bend, Indiana, USA
 
TheDman wrote:
It doesn't specify that, it simply says all manipulating is banned.

I believe their goals are commendable and attainable. My comments are based on their goals, believing the press statement was written by people who didn't understand what is going on.

Reply
Jan 15, 2018 23:35:01   #
btbg
 
Photographer Jim wrote:
This is an example of how the venue or how the image is used is a key factor as to identifying a photo as having been manipulated or not. I have never objected to the idea that in some areas (journalism, legal forensics, and to some extent advertising) manipulation of an image without acknowledgement is unethical at best, and criminal at worst.

Advertising presents a perplexing situation because while some manipulation may involve no more than a few aesthetic touch ups, other manipulations can be (and may intentionally be) misleading to the point of purposeful deception. Where the line between the two lies, is not always easy to define. However, if an advertiser or publication wishes to demand such upfront notification, the more power to them. I appreciate their efforts.

Where I generally take objection is when people carry this beyond this type of venue, and suggest that those creating photographic art also be required to identify with a label whether they have manipulated the image. Unlike journalism, legal services, or advertising, there is no harm that can be done to the viewer via “deception” in an image presented as visual art. As such, I see no justification whatsoever for creative photographers to identify beforehand when they have used PP, and especially if that is to be done with a physical marking on the print.
This is an example of how the venue or how the ima... (show quote)


Just out of curiosity why is it that you don't want to identify your photos as manipulated? People look at photos from the past to learn about what life was like at the time. If your photos last and are viewed as real when actually manipulated they will skew that people believe that our world was like. Does that not concern you?

Reply
Jan 15, 2018 23:54:55   #
mwsilvers Loc: Central New Jersey
 
rehess wrote:
You say this over and over again, and it is still irrelevant. Running image through automation is conceptually just like running film through machine. When you find someone opposed to level adjustment, sharpening, noise reduction, leveling, and/or cropping, then the two of you can have a nice conversation.


The OP sounds like he's saying just that. He said in his first post, "On my comments on "Photograpy & Reality" earlier yesterday I suggested that the icon's OCC (out of camera) and PP (post processing) be used on photo's to acknowledge to the viewer what they are looking at...original camera/lens shot, or photo with post processing (manipulation). "

The implication of that statement is that images straight out of the camera are more pure and less manipulated, and post processed images should be marked with effectively a Scarlet Letter, and could therefore be considered less legitimate. I'm saying jpegs coming straight out of the camera are also post processed by the camera, which is why I thought his premise was ridiculous. And today some cameras can crop and create special effects, removing vignetting, change sharpness, contrast , color tone, straighten verticals affected by barrel distortion, remove chromatic aberration, create HDR images, as well as other things. Only, the in-camera settings usually don't work as well as third-party software. I think it's hypocritical for people to suggest that images straight out of the camera are somehow more legitimate. Or perhaps it's just ignorance of what's happening to the images in camera. As a result, I do not believe my earlier comment was irrelevant.

Reply
 
 
Jan 16, 2018 00:08:44   #
Photographer Jim Loc: Rio Vista, CA
 
btbg wrote:
Just out of curiosity why is it that you don't want to identify your photos as manipulated? People look at photos from the past to learn about what life was like at the time. If your photos last and are viewed as real when actually manipulated they will skew that people believe that our world was like. Does that not concern you?


Actually I do identify my images as manipulated. When displayed, those with very high amounts of manipulation are clearly labeled photo-digital art on the tag. It’s really pretty obvious, but it cuts down on the number of people asking if it is “photoshopped”. Instead, they ask what photo-digital art means, and I’m then free to explain it. I don’t do it because I feel any obligation to make that distinction. If asked about others, I’ll answer truthfully. What I won’t do is print a label on the image proclaiming it.

Given the subject matter, and style, it’s quite doubtful that my photos would either confirm or skew future people’s beliefs about our times! So, no, I’m not the least concerned.

Reply
Jan 16, 2018 00:44:04   #
rehess Loc: South Bend, Indiana, USA
 
mwsilvers wrote:
The OP sounds like he's saying just that. He said in his first post, "On my comments on "Photograpy & Reality" earlier yesterday I suggested that the icon's OCC (out of camera) and PP (post processing) be used on photo's to acknowledge to the viewer what they are looking at...original camera/lens shot, or photo with post processing (manipulation). "

The implication of that statement is that images straight out of the camera are more pure and less manipulated, and post processed images should be marked with effectively a Scarlet Letter, and could therefore be considered less legitimate. I'm saying jpegs coming straight out of the camera are also post processed by the camera, which is why I thought his premise was ridiculous. And today some cameras can crop and create special effects, removing vignetting, change sharpness, contrast , color tone, straighten verticals affected by barrel distortion, remove chromatic aberration, create HDR images, as well as other things. Only, the in-camera settings usually don't work as well as third-party software. I think it's hypocritical for people to suggest that images straight out of the camera are somehow more legitimate. Or perhaps it's just ignorance of what's happening to the images in camera. As a result, I do not believe my earlier comment was irrelevant.
The OP sounds like he's saying just that. He said ... (show quote)

You seem to have raised at least three different subjects in this relatively short post
(1) the OP's proposal for icons
(2) what CVS is doing
(3) in-camera processing

I strongly dislike long posts. I have an even greater dislike for threads that go in several different directions. Topic (1) really ought to be discussed in the thread in which it was raised. Topic (3) is a discussion all of its own. Thus, my comments right now will relate only to topic (2) - but I know the other two are there.

As I said previously, I believe CVS is commendable in trying to address a real issue {I should mention here that I have two daughters - both of whom have survived their teen years relatively unscathed}. I don't know what the authors of this policy know about PP, and I don't know what the authors of the press release know about anything, but I am quite certain that this is a policy to eliminate "airbrushing" away pounds and blemishes. The OP makes it sound much more than that, but I don't think it is, and raising all those other issues in the context of this new policy is crazy-making - the sort of thing that generates lots of heat but little light.

As far as the other stuff is concerned, I hope we can rise above it. I have tried to make clear that I respect the work of artists, and I hope you can respect the work of documentarians such as me.

Reply
Jan 16, 2018 05:40:50   #
JaiGieEse Loc: Foxworth, MS
 
Lots of talk here. Some of it makes sense, like the advisability, or lack thereof, of post-processing in advertising and journalism.

As to other forms of photography, what I do with my work is none of your damned business.

Reply
Jan 16, 2018 05:41:37   #
ToBoldlyGo Loc: London U.K.
 
Indiana wrote:
As a follow-up to yesterdays thread "Photography & Reality" here is an interesting development from a major retailer that doesn't surprise me...and in fact, I was surprised that someone had not done it yet.

"CVS Health plans to announce Monday (1/15/2018) that it will ban manipulation in its store brand makeup marketing and promotional displays amid growing awareness of the harmful nature of touched-up images."
"...the decision reflects an acknowledgement that 'unrealistic body images' are a significant driver of health issues, 'especially among women.' "We're all consuming massive amounts of media everyday and we're not necessarily looking at imagery that is real and true," To try to hold ourselves up to be like those women is Impossible because even those women don't look like how they appear in those photographs" The retailer will place an icon with a "digitally modified" warning on any marketing materials that don't comply by 2020*

On my comments on "Photograpy & Reality" earlier yesterday I suggested that the icon's OCC (out of camera) and PP (post processing) be used on photo's to acknowledge to the viewer what they are looking at...original camera/lens shot, or photo with post processing (manipulation). This article by USA TODAY seems to suggest an awareness of misrepresentation by presenting a photo as reality, when in fact, it has been manipulated without acknowledgement, which in fact, supports my earlier position on representation/misrepresentation on the prior thread. I have been surprised that a challenge to the "truth in advertising" clause has not been applied and enforced on the visual media by consumer and product (visual) users. Interesting development. Please respond and please stay on topic!

* see USA TODAY by Nathan Bomey posted 1/15/2018.
As a follow-up to yesterdays thread "Photogra... (show quote)



Good on them. But the terminology of your post is incorrect. Post processing is not to be confused with manipulation. All photos are post processed. Not all photos are manipulated.

Reply
 
 
Jan 16, 2018 05:47:18   #
chrisg-optical Loc: New York, NY
 
Darkroom317 wrote:
This is similar in to the ban in France.
http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/fashion/photoshop-models-france-ban-2017-october-a7975351.html

In the US there are supposed to be laws involving representation of and claims about products. When I was studying media law in college I was handed the following case study as an assignment.

http://hoaxes.org/archive/permalink/sandpaper_test
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FTC_v._Colgate-Palmolive_Co.

Advertising can make things look better but there is a line in terms of making false claims. As standards of beauty has triggered a health crisis. I think that such actions are necessary for consumer protection. However, again this has no impact on photography when used as artistic expression.
This is similar in to the ban in France. br http:... (show quote)


Maybe CVS should start using Broom Hilda in their ads so let's see what happens to their sales...no amount of PP will help her.

Reply
Jan 16, 2018 05:47:20   #
ToBoldlyGo Loc: London U.K.
 
James Slick wrote:
This reminds me of when CDs had a "signal chain" mark (ADD,DDD,AAD) to indicate where analog or digital was used in the process of making the disc. Never mind that all recorded sound starts and ends as analog. and every recording medium adds or removes something of the "real" sound. - The record industry gave up on such labeling.

What is a "real" photograph? I don't know. Even selection of film type and speed changes "reality". Does altering DOF, or using wide angle or telephoto lenses produce "artificial" images? IDK that either. - I'm not a philosopher.

Photography isn't a religion with "holy scriptures" that must be followed. It's about making images.
This reminds me of when CDs had a "signal cha... (show quote)



Audio is similar to film vs digital. The initial recording medium does make a difference to the final version you hear. I like to hear the tape hiss personally, I feel like there is less manipulation vs a noiseless background, of course assuming the hiss is from the initial recording. Just me though.

Reply
Jan 16, 2018 05:53:57   #
duane klipping Loc: Bristow iowa
 
I am trying to understand your two post. Are you a purest with SOOC beliefs? If so you are missing out on the second part of photography and true freedom of expression.

Truth in advertising is a whole different ballgame and many of the models used are picked because of their external beauty. If that is what CVS is getting at. More political correctness in a politically incorrect world.

Reply
Jan 16, 2018 05:59:00   #
yssirk123 Loc: New Jersey
 
So is it the OP's conclusion that because a pharmacy has adopted a new advertising policy it should be applied to all photography??? On the surface, that seems ridiculous.

Alarm bells go off for me when someone not only tells me their opinion, but then suggests that it should be applied to everyone else. When I see these kinds of threads pop up in photography forums, I often think many of the posters have neither the skills nor the inclination to acquire the skills necessary to post process their images.

Reply
 
 
Jan 16, 2018 06:15:31   #
BlueMorel Loc: Southwest Michigan
 
I'd rather see a "RAS" label - "represents a stereotype". Advertising, by its very nature, shows manipulated images to make you salivate for their product. These new policies are good in that they bring attention to the message being sent, hopefully making new generations less susceptible, but probably won't wipe away body shaming in the world.

Reply
Jan 16, 2018 06:17:01   #
Architect1776 Loc: In my mind
 
Rick Loomis wrote:
The greatest manipulator of images was Ansel Adams. Don't believe it , look at the history of his life. In my opinion all of the above arguments are just balony.
Rick Loomis


My first thought.
The master of manipulation.

Reply
Jan 16, 2018 06:25:12   #
jerryc41 Loc: Catskill Mts of NY
 
Indiana wrote:
As a follow-up to yesterdays thread "Photography & Reality" here is an interesting development from a major retailer that doesn't surprise me...and in fact, I was surprised that someone had not done it yet.

"CVS Health plans to announce Monday (1/15/2018) that it will ban manipulation in its store brand makeup marketing and promotional displays amid growing awareness of the harmful nature of touched-up images."
"...the decision reflects an acknowledgement that 'unrealistic body images' are a significant driver of health issues, 'especially among women.' "We're all consuming massive amounts of media everyday and we're not necessarily looking at imagery that is real and true," To try to hold ourselves up to be like those women is Impossible because even those women don't look like how they appear in those photographs" The retailer will place an icon with a "digitally modified" warning on any marketing materials that don't comply by 2020*

On my comments on "Photograpy & Reality" earlier yesterday I suggested that the icon's OCC (out of camera) and PP (post processing) be used on photo's to acknowledge to the viewer what they are looking at...original camera/lens shot, or photo with post processing (manipulation). This article by USA TODAY seems to suggest an awareness of misrepresentation by presenting a photo as reality, when in fact, it has been manipulated without acknowledgement, which in fact, supports my earlier position on representation/misrepresentation on the prior thread. I have been surprised that a challenge to the "truth in advertising" clause has not been applied and enforced on the visual media by consumer and product (visual) users. Interesting development. Please respond and please stay on topic!

* see USA TODAY by Nathan Bomey posted 1/15/2018.
As a follow-up to yesterdays thread "Photogra... (show quote)


Various companies have done that in the past - magazines, for example. Models were made to look too thin and unnatural, and young girls wanted to look just then - too thin and unnatural. It's one thing to "touch-up" a picture, but to change it significantly is misleading. Imagine if realtors did that with houses they were selling.

Reply
Jan 16, 2018 06:26:57   #
eskimoky
 
Personally,i hear alot of posts here claiming to be artists....back to basics or keep it simple stupid! Subject,light,composition,focus,depth of field! If these standards of picture taking are followed then said pic should by all means be a good pic!now picture making adding your artistic liscense to your pic to perhaps cover for the lack of the basic standards being followed or to completely change rather than enhance a pic then in my humble opinion anyone with a pc can be a good photographer.im all for noting which premise a pic is represented under.

Reply
Page <<first <prev 4 of 18 next> last>>
If you want to reply, then register here. Registration is free and your account is created instantly, so you can post right away.
Main Photography Discussion
UglyHedgehog.com - Forum
Copyright 2011-2024 Ugly Hedgehog, Inc.