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Post processing for landscape images.
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Jun 26, 2017 17:18:56   #
MtnMan Loc: ID
 
via the lens wrote:
All you are really doing with LR is linking the images stored on your hard drive to a processing program in order to use the application to process the photos. Not really a big deal. And, it allows you to use the application as a starting and ending point for all things done to the image as well as gives you the ability to use a key word system to quickly find photos. I don't see how people can find fault with that.


I can see the misunderstanding in the post you were referencing. The poster saw some issue with importing into the Lightroom "Library".

Import in Lightroom does two things. The first is to import images into a folder on your hard drive. You have to do that with all image editing programs. You can't edit it if you don't import it.

The second thing is to put the image into its Catalog. That happens at the same time as importing so someone who says they dislike Lightroom because of the need to import images is clueless.

The Catalog is the genius of Lightroom. It is what enables non-destructive imaging of all image types for all changes Lightroom makes. Nothing you do in Lightroom affects your imported image. Instead Lightroom maintains a script of your changes and applies them when you look at, export, or print your image.

The "Library" in Lightroom is simply a set of functions such as keywords and metadata. There is nothing imported to it. Although import is one of its functions.

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Jun 26, 2017 17:26:19   #
via the lens Loc: Northern California, near Yosemite NP
 
MtnMan wrote:
I can see the misunderstanding in the post you were referencing. The poster saw some issue with importing into the Lightroom "Library".

Import in Lightroom does two things. The first is to import images into a folder on your hard drive. You have to do that with all image editing programs. You can't edit it if you don't import it.

The second thing is to put the image into its Catalog. That happens at the same time as importing so someone who says they dislike Lightroom because of the need to import images is clueless.

The Catalog is the genius of Lightroom. It is what enables non-destructive imaging of all image types for all changes Lightroom makes. Nothing you do in Lightroom affects your imported image. Instead Lightroom maintains a script of your changes and applies them when you look at, export, or print your image.

The "Library" in Lightroom is simply a set of functions such as keywords and metadata. There is nothing imported to it. Although import is one of its functions.
I can see the misunderstanding in the post you wer... (show quote)


I'm not sure why you are telling me this? I understand the program; you should reply to his comment, not mine.

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Jun 26, 2017 17:29:19   #
via the lens Loc: Northern California, near Yosemite NP
 
MtnMan wrote:
I can see the misunderstanding in the post you were referencing. The poster saw some issue with importing into the Lightroom "Library".

Import in Lightroom does two things. The first is to import images into a folder on your hard drive. You have to do that with all image editing programs. You can't edit it if you don't import it.

The second thing is to put the image into its Catalog. That happens at the same time as importing so someone who says they dislike Lightroom because of the need to import images is clueless.

The Catalog is the genius of Lightroom. It is what enables non-destructive imaging of all image types for all changes Lightroom makes. Nothing you do in Lightroom affects your imported image. Instead Lightroom maintains a script of your changes and applies them when you look at, export, or print your image.

The "Library" in Lightroom is simply a set of functions such as keywords and metadata. There is nothing imported to it. Although import is one of its functions.
I can see the misunderstanding in the post you wer... (show quote)


P.S. You don't really "put the image into its Catalog." The catalog is just a set of metadata reflecting changes to each image and the actual image does not go "into" the catalog. If you did not make any changes to the image there would be no catalog data stored. Good to get it right so it's less confusing for people who don't know the software.

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Jun 26, 2017 17:29:30   #
TheDman Loc: USA
 
MtnMan wrote:
But one big adder is that Lightroom enables non-destructive editing of images. Bridge does not.


MtnMan wrote:
I said Photoshop is destructive. Not ACR.


Which is it?

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Jun 26, 2017 17:51:01   #
Gene51 Loc: Yonkers, NY, now in LSD (LowerSlowerDelaware)
 
MtnMan wrote:
I can see the misunderstanding in the post you were referencing. The poster saw some issue with importing into the Lightroom "Library".

Import in Lightroom does two things. The first is to import images into a folder on your hard drive. You have to do that with all image editing programs. You can't edit it if you don't import it.

The second thing is to put the image into its Catalog. That happens at the same time as importing so someone who says they dislike Lightroom because of the need to import images is clueless.

The Catalog is the genius of Lightroom. It is what enables non-destructive imaging of all image types for all changes Lightroom makes. Nothing you do in Lightroom affects your imported image. Instead Lightroom maintains a script of your changes and applies them when you look at, export, or print your image.

The "Library" in Lightroom is simply a set of functions such as keywords and metadata. There is nothing imported to it. Although import is one of its functions.
I can see the misunderstanding in the post you wer... (show quote)


Adobe Camera Raw is non-destructive. To my knowledge all raw editors are non-destructive. Why do you keep saying that the LR catalog is unique because it is not destructive? Do you not understand how raw editing works, and what an xmp file is? And how you can return any raw edits done in any raw converter back to it's initial state? Do you also not realize that in addition to copying files from one place to another, you can also copy the files using Finder or Windows Explorer, cull and rate those images with On1 Browse or PhotoMechanic (or Faststone), and merely Add them to the catalog without moving or copying them?

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Jun 26, 2017 17:55:31   #
TheDman Loc: USA
 
Gene51 wrote:
I think a 24 is on the edge of being an ultrawide, but not quite.

Yes, he did use it a lot. One of the signature "looks" is this view where the foreground has a prominent element and you still have a long view of distant mountains. It has become somewhat of a cliche.

However, he used quite a variety of lenses - from a 15mm to an 80-200 F2.8 for landscapes.

Most of his gear decisions were made with an eye on weight and portability - so he could carry what he needed, often rock climbing to very remote locations - to get many of his amazing shots. He also didn't shoot digital, which might explain why he did not employ panoramas into his portfolio. But he could have had a hybrid process where he shot film then digitized it so he could edit on a computer. I really don't know enough about his process to comment.

http://www.mountainlight.com/rowell/gr_camera_bag.html

The ease with which one can put together a pano, along with the obvious benefits - reasonable portrayal of distances and scale, larger images that require less magnification to print, which translates into better printed image quality, and the flexibility of bringing fewer lenses into the field - if you have a 45mm lens you can easily cover the width of a 14mm lens on a full frame camera with 5-6 overlapping shots.

The first image is an example of a 6 frame pano, overlapped 50%, using a 45mm lens with camera in portrait orientation. I had my 14mm with me but in my test shot, the buildings were really tiny, as if the were moved from the Upper West Side of Manhattan across the Hudson River to North Bergen, New Jersey.

The resulting image is 15869x7394 px, or 117 mp, the posted image was downsampled for posting on UHH.

The second image is a single image taken with a 24mm lens in landscape orientation as a test shot, which I was not happy with for a number of reasons, followed by a 3 frame pano, same focal length, portrait orientation, 50% overlap.As you can see, there was no way that I could get the sky, reflection of the sky in the water, and the shoreline on either side of the bridge without going wide. I did not have my 14mm with me, so instead I did the pano and got everything I wanted. I ended up lopping off the top of the image above the trees, to get this result. The 14mm would have given me the width, but as in the other image, the buildings and even the bridge would have been smaller, and the foreground rocks would have been disproportionately large, dominating the composition, which was not my intent. I wanted the grouping of rocks to "point" towards the bridge. One more thing, in order to get the reflection with the 24mm I had to tilt the camera down, which resulted in keystoning that would have had to be corrected in post processing. The pano was shot with the camera perfectly level.

This is one of the examples I use to advocate for the use of panorama vs very wide angle.
I think a 24 is on the edge of being an ultrawide,... (show quote)



Rowell would have loved digital, but he didn't quite make it that far, unfortunately.

The second shot of yours isn't necessarily a shortcoming of wide angle, though; it's just not framed correctly. You could have gotten the sky , bridge, and rocks if you had gotten much lower and closer to the rocks, thus eliminating all the 'empty' lake area. You would have to have been careful not to hide your reflection, though. You're right that the bridge would have been smaller in relation to the rocks. If the rocks were the strongest element of your image though, that might be your best choice, which is why wide angle is just another tool in the bag. It's up to you to decide what you want the most prominent element of your image to be, and to choose the focal length that will allow you to create that. This cow image was shot at around 20mm because I wanted to make the cow as large as possible in relation to the mountain. The tunnel of trees was at 400mm. Different focal lengths for the job.

But just so you know, I'm with you on the pano technique. When I have time and I'm not worried about my light disappearing or my subject moving, I love shooting ridiculously large panos to stitch. This last one of the Notre Dame basilica is a 26-frame pano shot with a 70-200 lens. The full file is over 18,000 x 11,000 pixels! The thing will wallpaper a bus at 240ppi. :)







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Jun 26, 2017 18:03:58   #
Gene51 Loc: Yonkers, NY, now in LSD (LowerSlowerDelaware)
 
Rich1939 wrote:
"I don't know of any other process that does that. Many of those ho dis Lightroom insist on using their PC file system to create folders and import images to them. That takes numerous strps."
I learned PS well before Lightroom was packaged with it so I stay with what I know. One of those things is that when I plug in my memory card a folder is created. Automatically. My raw files are stored in that folder. Automatically. The new images are opened in bridge. Automatically. The images on the card are erased (my choice). Automatically.
All from one action. Yes that all had to be set up. Once. Quite a few years ago.
"I don't know of any other process that does ... (show quote)


LR does the same thing. What you are talking about has nothing to do with Lightroom, Photoshop or any other application - it's all part of Windows' AutoPlay action settings. You can set it up to go open an application of your choice to import images when a recognized device is connected to it that has pictures on it. If you have LR identified as the application to use, then LR does exactly that - it will create a dated folder where it imports new images. Automatically. They open up in Library module. Automatically. Just like your PS in your system. And if you want to, in LR, you can have the card cleared as well, but this is a terrible idea. I'd rather format the card, which you should do anyway, after you are certain that the files have come over without any soft errors that could make them unreadable. Automatically. Just like what you do now. Automatically.

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Jun 26, 2017 18:05:16   #
Gene51 Loc: Yonkers, NY, now in LSD (LowerSlowerDelaware)
 
Ricker wrote:
That is an excellent and valuable and sensible response to the question posed. Obviously you have dedicated yourself to solving a lot of the common mistakes we all make when trying to photograph beautiful landscapes. WELL DONE!!
I'll attempt to follow your lead. It never even dawned on me to try to use long lenses, shoot and stitch together multiple images taken in the panorama mode.
Best regards, Ricker


I think you will fall in love with the process after the first stitch.

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Jun 26, 2017 18:13:32   #
Gene51 Loc: Yonkers, NY, now in LSD (LowerSlowerDelaware)
 
TheDman wrote:
Rowell would have loved digital, but he didn't quite make it that far, unfortunately.

The second shot of yours isn't necessarily a shortcoming of wide angle, though; it's just not framed correctly. You could have gotten the sky , bridge, and rocks if you had gotten much lower and closer to the rocks, thus eliminating all the 'empty' lake area. You would have to have been careful not to hide your reflection, though. You're right that the bridge would have been smaller in relation to the rocks. If the rocks were the strongest element of your image though, that might be your best choice, which is why wide angle is just another tool in the bag. It's up to you to decide what you want the most prominent element of your image to be, and to choose the focal length that will allow you to create that. This cow image was shot at around 20mm because I wanted to make the cow as large as possible in relation to the mountain. The tunnel of trees was at 400mm. Different focal lengths for the job.

But just so you know, I'm with you on the pano technique. When I have time and I'm not worried about my light disappearing or my subject moving, I love shooting ridiculously large panos to stitch. This last one of the Notre Dame basilica is a 26-frame pano shot with a 70-200 lens. The full file is over 18,000 x 11,000 pixels! The thing will wallpaper a bus at 240ppi. :)
Rowell would have loved digital, but he didn't qui... (show quote)


Second shot was a throwaway. I realized as I moved around the rocks that I wasn't going to get what I wanted from a composition point of view due to the need to stand in waist-deep water in between the rocks. So getting low would not have helped, and there was not enough height to get the sky. That image was uncropped. The 14mm might have been ok, but it wasn't in the bag. So I didn't worry, I used what I had to do the shot.

Love all three of your images. lots of impact in each. I would have shot the basilica image from the center aisle, though. The view is a little unsettling, since it seems that with the left side being closer to the camera than the right side, it is bigger, and the tops of the columns are uneven, given the impression that the guy who built this cathedral was the same contractor that built the Tower of Pisa.

Great shots though, especially the trees.

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Jun 26, 2017 18:23:17   #
MtnMan Loc: ID
 
via the lens wrote:
I'm not sure why you are telling me this? I understand the program; you should reply to his comment, not mine.


I was agreeing with and elucidating your post.

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Jun 26, 2017 18:27:48   #
David in Dallas Loc: Dallas, Texas, USA
 
I like Lightroom®. I've never tried its panorama stitching function--I do that before I import the photos to LR, using a simple tool called Autostitch®. Autostitch is neat--you don't even have to give it the photos in order, because it figures that out for itself.

Here are some examples of my panoramas: https://www.flickr.com/photos/8712554@N02/sets/72157682630852686/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/8712554@N02/sets/72157622539644247/

They're not outstanding, but they are good enough for me.

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Jun 26, 2017 18:30:21   #
Gene51 Loc: Yonkers, NY, now in LSD (LowerSlowerDelaware)
 
MtnMan wrote:
Yes, that is one simple way.

I said Photoshop is destructive. Not ACR. Keep in mind most photographers shoot jpeg.

Yes, I know you can do much more in Photoshop. I sometimes use sharpening actions with many steps in Photoshop (learned from Shew's The Digital Negative).

But I think it irresposible to suggest Photoshop to newbies. It is a very difficult program to learn and use. Lightroom is simple and does most of what most photographers want.


Photoshop is not destructive if follow good practices - you use adjustment layers, smart objects and even if you don't you work on a duplicate of the base layer to make your adjustments, or in the worst case, a duplicate of the file. Nothing at all is destructive about it, unless you apply your adjustments directly to the image without smart objects or layers. I even apply sharpening non-destructively, using Photokit Sharpener which puts everything on adjustment layers as well. I don't think you are qualified to pass judgement on PS since it is pretty clear that your knowledge of the program seems to be, from the statements you are making, a little thin.

This may provide a little insight to how to work non-destructively in Photoshop.

https://www.pluralsight.com/blog/creative-professional/understanding-non-destructive-workflows-in-photoshop

https://www.lightstalking.com/how-to-have-a-non-destructive-workflow-in-photoshop/

https://www.damiensymonds.net/2010/03/non-destructive-workflow.html

https://design.tutsplus.com/articles/using-non-destructive-editing-techniques-in-your-photoshop-workflow--psd-17780

If you aren't doing these things, your knowledge is beginner level, and you aren't properly utilizing Photoshop. The tendency for beginners is to rush to make adjustments, without giving any thought to reversibility, which would be totally destructive.

A simple example. You can apply the Dodge and Burn brushes directly to an active layer. Or you can create a two layers, each with 50% gray, call one Dodge, the other Burn. Change the blend mode to Overlay for each. You can paint with the burn brush onto the Burn layer, or a regular black brush, low opacity and flow, and build up areas that you want to make darker. And you can do the same with a white brush to lighten things on the Dodge layer. Totally non-destructive. If you want to partially undo a specific area, use the opposite color brush to "paint out" the effect. if you want to completely undo the burn or dodge, use a brush with a color of 50% gray, 100% opacity and paint away. If you decide you don't want to do any dodge and burn for now, but might want to do it later, you can leave the layers in place and just turn them off. This workflow is 100% reversible - the definition of non-destructive.

Not trying to insult you - just saying that you might want to invest the time to learn something before you disparage it as difficult to learn, difficult to use. At last count there are close to 9,000,000 users that obviously took the time to learn it and use Photoshop CC in their work or hobby.

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Jun 26, 2017 18:30:52   #
MtnMan Loc: ID
 
Gene51 wrote:
LR does the same thing. What you are talking about has nothing to do with Lightroom, Photoshop or any other application - it's all part of Windows' AutoPlay action settings. You can set it up to go open an application of your choice to import images when a recognized device is connected to it that has pictures on it. If you have LR identified as the application to use, then LR does exactly that - it will create a dated folder where it imports new images. Automatically. They open up in Library module. Automatically. Just like your PS in your system. And if you want to, in LR, you can have the card cleared as well, but this is a terrible idea. I'd rather format the card, which you should do anyway, after you are certain that the files have come over without any soft errors that could make them unreadable. Automatically. Just like what you do now. Automatically.
LR does the same thing. What you are talking about... (show quote)


I suspect some of those who whine about Lightroom import have many existing images. Some of them say they have been using Photoshop for years. They may be actually complaining about entering their existing folders into the catalog. The import process does that. When so doing it does not affect the folders or images.

It is easy to set up to do that but if you have many tens of thousands of images could be time consuming. If you already have a Photoshop Elements catalog Lightroom will swallow it eadily and quickly. I don't know if there is a special provision to hrab folders from Bridge.

But, once you have put the folders into Lightroom you can't fool with the image folders or files outside of Lightroom. That seems to trip up some of them.

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Jun 26, 2017 18:35:02   #
MtnMan Loc: ID
 
Gene51 wrote:
Photoshop is not destructive if follow good practices - you use adjustment layers, smart objects and even if you don't you work on a duplicate of the base layer to make your adjustments, or in the worst case, a duplicate of the file. Nothing at all is destructive about it, unless you apply your adjustments directly to the image without smart objects or layers. I even apply sharpening non-destructively, using Photokit Sharpener which puts everything on adjustment layers as well. I don't think you are qualified to pass judgement on PS since it is pretty clear that your knowledge of the program seems to be, from the statements you are making, a little thin.

This may provide a little insight to how to work non-destructively in Photoshop.

https://www.pluralsight.com/blog/creative-professional/understanding-non-destructive-workflows-in-photoshop

https://www.lightstalking.com/how-to-have-a-non-destructive-workflow-in-photoshop/

https://www.damiensymonds.net/2010/03/non-destructive-workflow.html

https://design.tutsplus.com/articles/using-non-destructive-editing-techniques-in-your-photoshop-workflow--psd-17780

If you aren't doing these things, your knowledge is beginner level, and you aren't properly utilizing Photoshop. The tendency for beginners is to rush to make adjustments, without giving any thought to reversibility, which would be totally destructive.

A simple example. You can apply the Dodge and Burn brushes directly to an active layer. Or you can create a two layers, each with 50% gray, call one Dodge, the other Burn. Change the blend mode to Overlay for each. You can paint with the burn brush onto the Burn layer, or a regular black brush, low opacity and flow, and build up areas that you want to make darker. And you can do the same with a white brush to lighten things on the Dodge layer. Totally non-destructive. If you want to partially undo a specific area, use the opposite color brush to "paint out" the effect. if you want to completely undo the burn or dodge, use a brush with a color of 50% gray, 100% opacity and paint away. If you decide you don't want to do any dodge and burn for now, but might want to do it later, you can leave the layers in place and just turn them off. This workflow is 100% reversible - the definition of non-destructive.

Not trying to insult you - just saying that you might want to invest the time to learn something before you disparage it as difficult to learn, difficult to use. At last count there are close to 9,000,000 users that obviously took the time to learn it and use Photoshop CC in their work or hobby.
Photoshop is not destructive if follow good practi... (show quote)


I readily admit to having thin knowledge of Photoshop. And certainly thin experience compared to what I have now accumulated with Lightroom. I only have two Masters Degrees and have only been working with it for five years so am certainly challenged.

That is why I am qualified to say it is MUCH more difficult to learn and use than Lightroom.

I guess you can't get how complicated your descriptions are to those who have only a photography interest.

I'd suggest 95% of those users you refer to (which I assume are the CC users) are only actually using Lightroom. And even 4 of the other 5% use Lightroom for 95% of their editing.

I belonged to a relatively large Photography club. All used Lightroom. Only a small percent used Photoshop and only sometimes. The club included many professionals.

BTW, isn't cropping always destructive in Photoshop?

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Jun 26, 2017 18:46:41   #
Gene51 Loc: Yonkers, NY, now in LSD (LowerSlowerDelaware)
 
David in Dallas wrote:
I like Lightroom®. I've never tried its panorama stitching function--I do that before I import the photos to LR, using a simple tool called Autostitch®. Autostitch is neat--you don't even have to give it the photos in order, because it figures that out for itself.

Here are some examples of my panoramas: https://www.flickr.com/photos/8712554@N02/sets/72157682630852686/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/8712554@N02/sets/72157622539644247/

They're not outstanding, but they are good enough for me.
I like Lightroom®. I've never tried its panorama ... (show quote)


Nice stuff. You'll like Lightroom. When you do a stitch, you can use raw files, and the end result is a raw (dng) file with all the same editing capability of a first generation raw file.

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