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Depth of field question
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Mar 28, 2017 21:36:41   #
kymarto Loc: Portland OR and Milan Italy
 
RWR wrote:
I have a new 100 f/2.8 Trioplan like kymarto mentioned. I ordered a Nikon mount lens but B&H sent a Leica M mount version, so I can only use it on my rangefinder film cameras, but here is what Meyer says about it. In the 3rd image note that f/2.8 (wide open) is recommended to produce the "soap bubbles," so obviously the number and shape of the aperture blades is immaterial.


First, if you ordered a Nikon version and B&H sent a different mount get in touch with them and exchange it!

The characteristic bokeh of a lens, as determined by its optical structure, shows most strongly at maximum aperture. As you stop down, you get closer and closer to evenly-illuminated circles of confusion, which get smaller and smaller as DOF increases. And yes, those circles will take on the shape of the aperture.

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Mar 28, 2017 22:10:15   #
catchlight.. Loc: Wisconsin USA- Halden Norway
 
kymarto wrote:
Wrong? Where did I talk about aperture blades? Aperture shape is something we have not talked about, but you are correct that the shape of the iris, or of any aperture shape (gobo) placed in front (or back) of the lens will influence the shape of the out-of-focus areas. This will clearly affect bokeh (not bokah) and sun stars as well.

Some of my old lenses have up to 20 blades. I also have a lens with three blades, which can give very interesting results.


Thanks for mentioning the gobo affect...it seams that some preach on a soap box with little regard to fact.

Bokeh could be a whole new thread.


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Mar 28, 2017 23:10:28   #
RWR Loc: La Mesa, CA
 
kymarto wrote:
First, if you ordered a Nikon version and B&H sent a different mount get in touch with them and exchange it!

Oh, they're well aware of my dissatisfaction, all right! (http://www.uglyhedgehog.com/t-449037-1.html) I could have returned it for exchange, but with no way of knowing what they'd send next I just decided to keep it. I don't use my DSLR much anyway.

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Mar 29, 2017 00:06:52   #
kymarto Loc: Portland OR and Milan Italy
 
RWR wrote:
Oh, they're well aware of my dissatisfaction, all right! (http://www.uglyhedgehog.com/t-449037-1.html) I could have returned it for exchange, but with no way of knowing what they'd send next I just decided to keep it. I don't use my DSLR much anyway.


I have had only good experiences with B&H in terms of returns, even when they did not make any mistake. I ordered a Sony a6000 from them, and only after several weeks did I notice banding on my photos. I had even thrown away the original packaging by that time, but they replaced the body. The new one also exhibited the same banding, and I found out (through the 'net and by trying a number of other a6000 bodies) that instead of being a manufacturing defect, that was Sony's dirty secret--the sensor bands and there is nothing you can do about it. B&H gave me a full refund, even though the product that they sent was not "defective" by Sony's standards. I can highly recommend them based on my personal experiences, and I have ordered tens of thousands of dollars of equipment from them over the years both for work and personally.

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Mar 29, 2017 08:06:30   #
RWR Loc: La Mesa, CA
 
kymarto wrote:
I have had only good experiences with B&H in terms of returns, even when they did not make any mistake. I ordered a Sony a6000 from them, and only after several weeks did I notice banding on my photos. I had even thrown away the original packaging by that time, but they replaced the body. The new one also exhibited the same banding, and I found out (through the 'net and by trying a number of other a6000 bodies) that instead of being a manufacturing defect, that was Sony's dirty secret--the sensor bands and there is nothing you can do about it. B&H gave me a full refund, even though the product that they sent was not "defective" by Sony's standards. I can highly recommend them based on my personal experiences, and I have ordered tens of thousands of dollars of equipment from them over the years both for work and personally.
I have had only good experiences with B&H in t... (show quote)

Their customer service after the sale is as good as anyone’s. I sent Henry the order numbers and ship dates of my incorrect orders, dating back to October, 2015. Hopefully they’ll find and correct the problem - sure is disappointing when you don’t receive what you order!

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Mar 29, 2017 08:37:17   #
Gene51 Loc: Yonkers, NY, now in LSD (LowerSlowerDelaware)
 
Chefneil wrote:
Sir, I am not entirely in agreement with your statement. But, please if you have anything positive to offer, I would love to read it.


What part do you disagree with?

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Mar 29, 2017 08:42:53   #
Gene51 Loc: Yonkers, NY, now in LSD (LowerSlowerDelaware)
 
amfoto1 wrote:
Depth of field is only effected by three things: focal length, aperture and distance.

In your example:

90mm focal length is the same
f/11 aperture is the same
distance to subject is the same

Therefore depth of field will be the same.

DoF actually does not change with sensor size/film format. (How we use different formats changes... going from full frame to APS-C or vice versa usually means either the focal length or the distance to subject or a bit of both must be changed in order to frame a subject the same way... and those do change DoF.)

And it certainly doesn't change depending upon manufacturer, brand or model either.

You might have trouble setting exactly 90mm on the zooms. Even if it's indicated on the zoom's focal length scale, often those aren't exact.

And a 90mm lens might actually be + or - 10% that focal length (at least, that was the tolerance the industry allowed in the past), so it might actually be anywhere from 81mm to 99mm, if accurately measured.

Plus, an internal focusing lens will actually change focal length when focused. I don't know about the Tamron 90mm (who actually sell a more expensive one that's IF and a less expensive 90mm that's not) specifically. But, for example, the Canon 100mm f2.8 USM macro lens is actually about 70mm when it's focused to it's minimum focus distance. You don't notice this change in the field... and it's more extreme with an IF macro lens due to it's extreme focusing range.

There's also can be some slight variation in aperture accuracy. However, that's usually very minimal. I recall a lab test for an non-variable "f/4" zoom I use that showed the aperture was actually something like f/3.9 at the wide end and f/4.1 at the more telephoto. That's probably true of most lenses, that their designated apertures vary slightly. But this is really "splitting hairs".

But, putting aside all those slight variables and assuming it were possible to keep all focal length, aperture and distance constant... there would be absolutely no difference in DoF.

You would see far greater difference from lens-to-lens in terms of resolution, sharpness, color fidelity and rendition, distortion such as "barrel" or "pincushion", chromatic aberration, coma, vignetting, and other image quality variables.
Depth of field is only effected by three things: f... (show quote)


Please show a chart or other source that shows that dof is the same for crop and full frame. You seem to be confused by circle of confusion.

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Mar 29, 2017 08:46:08   #
Gene51 Loc: Yonkers, NY, now in LSD (LowerSlowerDelaware)
 
catchlight.. wrote:
Wrong...The size and the shapes of bokah is directly related to the blade numbers and design...not really DOF created.

The out of focus DOF will take on the attributes of the aperture blades.

Some photographers are quite picky about the shape of the bokeh, and others could care less. Round and smooth is considered perfect by most.

High end lenses, like Canon and Nikon’s 24-70 f/2.8 both have 9 blades for example and do a great job.

Overall, the lenses that produce the best bokeh have 9 rounded blades and the worst have 5 straight blades.

Most lenses fall somewhere in between, with 7 rounded blades. For the most pleasing bokeh you will want to invest in a lens with more aperture blades.

If you’re looking to save some money, consider picking up a prime lens with at least 7 rounded blades.
Wrong...The size and the shapes of bokah is direct... (show quote)


Please explain your notion about bokeh when you use a lens that shows good bokeh even though it is not stopped down.

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Mar 29, 2017 08:58:02   #
catchlight.. Loc: Wisconsin USA- Halden Norway
 
kymarto wrote:
Wrong? Where did I talk about aperture blades? Aperture shape is something we have not talked about, but you are correct that the shape of the iris, or of any aperture shape (gobo) placed in front (or back) of the lens will influence the shape of the out-of-focus areas. This will clearly affect bokeh (not bokah) and sun stars as well.

Some of my old lenses have up to 20 blades. I also have a lens with three blades, which can give very interesting results.


Soap bubbles are a new phrase for me but I do think you shot is fantastic and I do like how it looks.

I think the original question is interesting from a prospective I haven't thought about... a expectation for DOF quality that would quantify lens not based on bokeh.

Cheers


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Mar 29, 2017 09:22:49   #
catchlight.. Loc: Wisconsin USA- Halden Norway
 
Gene51 wrote:
Please show a chart or other source that shows that dof is the same for crop and full frame. You seem to be confused by circle of confusion.


It isn't of course...it was a general reply but you bring up a good point.

I think the proposed test is utilizing a standard in Focal distance, f/stop and shutter speed on one camera as a comparison.

In photography, the circle of confusion is often defined as the largest blur spot that will still be perceived by the human eye as a point.

The greater the distance an object is from the plane of focus, the greater the size of the blur spot (circle of confusion). The blur spot has the same shape as the lens aperture.

A more general blur spot has soft edges due to diffraction and aberrations and may be non-circular due to the aperture shape.

Also a more general blur spot has soft edges due to diffraction and aberrations.

Also "the circle of confusion" is directly affected by the lens quality...and the "shape" of the bokeh is the effect of the blades.

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Mar 29, 2017 17:44:27   #
Chefneil
 
kymarto wrote:
Wrong? Where did I talk about aperture blades? Aperture shape is something we have not talked about, but you are correct that the shape of the iris, or of any aperture shape (gobo) placed in front (or back) of the lens will influence the shape of the out-of-focus areas. This will clearly affect bokeh (not bokah) and sun stars as well.

Some of my old lenses have up to 20 blades. I also have a lens with three blades, which can give very interesting results.



If you have any images from either the the 20 bladed for 3 bladed lens, could you post them with a short description? I have never, knowing seen a photo using those blade counts.

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Mar 29, 2017 17:48:24   #
Chefneil
 
Gene51 wrote:
What part do you disagree with?


Bacisally the whole thing. At the point that you had posted there were several well worded replies, and one with a link to a Wiki article. So please, if you have something to offer please do.

olc

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Mar 29, 2017 23:52:26   #
kymarto Loc: Portland OR and Milan Italy
 
Chefneil wrote:
If you have any images from either the the 20 bladed for 3 bladed lens, could you post them with a short description? I have never, knowing seen a photo using those blade counts.


I have these old lenses only for the purpose of bokeh shots, as they tend to have unique renderings, and because of that, I only shoot them wide open, so I don't have any shots using the iris. The three bladed lens is a 20-100mm f2 cine lens and the 20 bladed lens is a very old brass lens from Germany, made about 120 years ago. There is a Russian lens with only two blades, which creates square bokeh highlights. In addition some folks using old large format lenses with shutters keep the leaf shutter blades half open to create very distinct stars. This kind of thing has never interested me--I am more interested in unique bokeh renderings at full aperture. In fact my favorite lens does not even have an iris.

Obviously the more blades, the rounder the OOF highlights will be, which is generally considered desirable. Many-bladed irises went out of fashion around the time that automatic diaphragms were starting to come into vogue for SLR cameras, I'm guessing because of the difficulty of designing a quickly-responsive iris with many blades.

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